0:00 · Unknown · All right. Welcome to another episode of the Etherica podcast. Uh we're joined today with a

All right. Welcome to another episode of the Etherica podcast. Uh we're joined today with a very special guest. He is one of my personal favorite human beings to interact with. Um Ike and myself have both interviewed him individually on our own podcasts. I'd recommend everybody go and check those out. Um his studies span multiple systems of holistic health care such as arurveda, traditional Chinese medicine, western herbal medicine and speria. He's got a clinical practice where he combines modern and traditional systems of natural medicine within an alchemical

0:52 · Unknown · architecture. He's on the board of directors and is a professional member of the Herbalist A

architecture. He's on the board of directors and is a professional member of the Herbalist Association of Nova Scotia and the board of directors of the Canadian Council of Herbalist Associations and is a member of the International Alchemy Guild, a faculty member of the Sajirkus School of Alchemy. He's an operative laboratory alchemist and he is the founder of Secret Fire Apothecary. He is Daniel Wisman. So, Daniel, so glad to have you, man. Um, is there anything else you want to throw out there and add about yourself before we get going? No, I I think you

1:30 · Unknown · got the the important details. Thanks. Thanks for having me on. I love chatting with you bot

got the the important details. Thanks. Thanks for having me on. I love chatting with you both. So, uh, this should be fun, all three of us in one virtual room. Yes. Um, I got a herbalism question for you off the bat. kind of a random one, but um so Meg and I, we were going down this like rabbit hole on Kratom. Uh you know, cuz there's like there's like Thai strains. There's Bali, Mangda, uh and Dude, you're not take you're not taking that stuff, are you? I'm I have I have kind of

2:02 · Unknown · a crowd problem. Oh, for [ __ ] sake. So there's like uh then there's like white um and then

a crowd problem. Oh, for [ __ ] sake. So there's like uh then there's like white um and then there's green and then there's red. And then so she was explaining to me how it's like based on these different harvest times and I guess that you know depending on the stage and the cycle they produce different compounds that lend to different effects or whatever. So I was curious um say something like metals in the earth uh like the earlier ore say if like it's mined at an earlier

2:40 · Unknown · time and and utilized within some process does it contain particular energetic qualities ver

time and and utilized within some process does it contain particular energetic qualities versus if it was you know uh out of the ground and sitting around for a while. Does it lose some sort of uh potency in terms of uh energetic sort compounds or is there any differences alchemically in that regard with the metals? Yeah, with metallics like if if you got like an ore? Well, yeah. I mean, there's the thought that if a metal has been refined uh that it dies essentially. There's different thoughts on this and I think some of them are interesting to explore and some of them

3:26 · Unknown · don't really pan out. Um but the idea is that a well one of the ideas is that fire at certai

don't really pan out. Um but the idea is that a well one of the ideas is that fire at certain temperature will kill the spirit of a metal. Um, I'm not entirely convinced of that because, uh, you know, I've processed metals with and without fire and still am able to bring things to to success. Um, so it depends. I mean, time, harvest time is is is an interesting question with this, right? Because we're talking about millions of years, right? you know, this stuff is there, you know, like a fresh harvest would be, you know, you'd have to capture something

4:10 · Unknown · from like a meteorite or something like that. And then then the question is, well, how long

from like a meteorite or something like that. And then then the question is, well, how long has it been that metal or mineral before it even came to Earth? And it's it's it's be it's difficult to compare to herbs in in that sense. But I think that overall the processing of metals is an or minerals too is important to consider. Um personally I like to work from ores as much as possible because an ore is you know it's the untreated natural form. So I get to control what is done or not done to that metal. Um I have noticed differences in certain things. You know,

4:53 · Unknown · you could have like commercially prepared um let's say oxides or acetates and different form

you could have like commercially prepared um let's say oxides or acetates and different forms of metals and minerals and then and then you could, you know, contrast to working with um natural ores and see what comes out of it, you know, and and I've had mixed results. Sometimes I get um you know, I've never had I've never had a natural ore let me down. I um you know sometimes commercial sources of metals and minerals I've had lackluster results but it's mixed. So it's it's

5:30 · Unknown · hard for me to to really side take a side in this. It's it's I think it's an interesting que

hard for me to to really side take a side in this. It's it's I think it's an interesting question to ponder. And also too it's we never know exactly what the context or or intention of someone's words is when they say oh this kills a metal or this is this source is dead and this source is alive. It's very subjective. You know, we don't we don't have like a working standard to go by. Um, in the history of alchemy, you you have constant arguments more than you have a agreements. Um,

6:03 · Unknown · and and you know, translation is another thing, of course. Um, you know, authorship is often

and and you know, translation is another thing, of course. Um, you know, authorship is often in question. It could be 10 people, it could be one person. You know, there's there's so many things to consider uh when looking at um these statements made, but I think the most important thing is to do the work and see if it works or see if it doesn't work. You know, put it to the test um rather than just uh getting too heady about it. So, mixed mixed results. Um but overall, I prefer

6:36 · Unknown · to use natural ores, you know, get go straight to the source and uh work from that. There's

to use natural ores, you know, get go straight to the source and uh work from that. There's always, you know, even the idea of um just like with farming, like the place something comes from, you know, makes a difference, you know, and I think it's a little bit more difficult to um make a strong chemical argument with the metals. Like with plants, we can say, "Oh, these plants growing over here, oh, the soil is uh acidic and rich in this mineral or that mineral." Um, when we talk about metals, I mean, you know, gold is gold is gold. It's it's all

7:15 · Unknown · the same thing or another metal. It's all it's all the same thing. But, um, you know, the id

the same thing or another metal. It's all it's all the same thing. But, um, you know, the idea that there's different energetics to a space, a place. Um, I think that holds some weight. So, uh, I consider that too. And that's another reason why I like to like harvest my own stuff when I can. um cuz I know the areas and you know I can I can go to a a place where I can harvest without overh harvesting minerals. It's kind of hard to over overdo uh on a personal scale but um yeah it's

7:48 · Unknown · a good question and it's something I I've thought a lot about. I've I've spent a lot of time

a good question and it's something I I've thought a lot about. I've I've spent a lot of time cross comparing things to see um what actually holds up. That's one of my favorite things to do with, you know, these so-called like truths, you know, is to tease them out, see what works, what doesn't work, and, you know, in the end find your own way um to determine whether something's valid or not. Yeah. And so like kind of speaking to the place and say geologically and geographically. I don't know if

8:20 · Unknown · you have a theory on this or if this is if there's some sort of understanding or consensus a

you have a theory on this or if this is if there's some sort of understanding or consensus about um this but with ores and the rate at which they grow or the places in which they grow. I would assume that it probably has a lot to do with the materials that are native in the soil that they're growing in. But then I also wonder because we do know that there are electromagnetic um like currents, you know, there's toertic currents in the earth and there's certain energetic qualities to those things. And I don't know if you've ever come across or have heard any

9:00 · Unknown · theories about the potentials of whether an ore of a metallic can if this sort of uh energet

theories about the potentials of whether an ore of a metallic can if this sort of uh energetic quality would lend to its growth or anything along these lines. So, are there any patterns that um have to do with things that people have detected and noticed or measured as far as like electromagnetism and the earth and how that affects or growth or anything like that? perhaps um I think some things like electromagnetism might be a little more difficult to kind of get a sense of whether it's having an effect on the um the growth of of something because I think largely

9:46 · Unknown · when we when we look at the mineral kingdom like these things are being born in the most ext

when we when we look at the mineral kingdom like these things are being born in the most extreme situations right which is also why I question the idea like the idea that fire kills an ore or like a strong acid that's another idea People say, "Oh, if you use strong acids like Aquaria or you know, nitric acid, aquafortus, all these things that these strong acids or fire will kill the metal." And it's like that's like saying your mother will will kill you. You know what I mean? These things

10:16 · Unknown · are born in extreme extreme environments. They're born in volcanoes and you know inside the

are born in extreme extreme environments. They're born in volcanoes and you know inside the earth or they're or they're brought here. That's the other thing is there's a lot of mystery to where everything comes from. I think largely we can see that we've been kind of seated we're bombarded with you know comets and things like that that bring um bring these metals to earth you know like the the um gold for example you know they say comes from stars or platinum essentially

10:49 · Unknown · coming from supernovas you know so if something can survive a supernova or is born of a supe

coming from supernovas you know so if something can survive a supernova or is born of a supernova um I don't think my, you know, acids or or my little forge of, you know, a thousand or maybe 1500 degrees at at very very most um is going to do any harm. It's it seems kind of counter counterintuitive. But it's it's interesting to see how things occur though. You know, maybe this speaks to your question like, you know, you get abundance of certain things in certain places and then those places also have certain, you know, just like, you know, people in different

11:27 · Unknown · places have different cultures and languages and things like that. There's there's something

places have different cultures and languages and things like that. There's there's something about, you know, unique to environments, right? And those environments are made up of not just organic but inorganic materials. And um to rule out that those inorganic materials have an effect or or are affected by an area I think would be um you know uh in an overreach. Um it's something to consider but it's hard I think these are things that are difficult to really um prove out but it's clear

12:01 · Unknown · that different areas produce different stuff in varying amounts. Um and then the environment

that different areas produce different stuff in varying amounts. Um and then the environments it's if we think of these inorganics as building blocks um a lot of the time the organic life that builds upon the inorganic life is is um you know largely affected by this this inorganic substrate that the organic stuff grows from. You know different plants like different pH or minerals and things like that and then you get different insects and it just goes right up through the the chain of life, right? So there's something to it, but um you know it's it's it's hard to say exactly.

12:42 · Unknown · And I think that you know there's definitely a strong idea that metals or minerals and cryst

And I think that you know there's definitely a strong idea that metals or minerals and crystals um store information particularly uh crystals. Um that's something that a lot of people speak on is the idea that crystals can hold memory um and even even metals can form in crystals. So, um, you know, perhaps metals, minerals, gemstones, um, have a unique energy, um, based on the environment that they're that they're in, you know, and I imagine that that if that's true, then their pockets are quite deep because they've been there for probably millions or billions of

13:24 · Unknown · years, right? So they have quite um a a stock of information in them if if this theory is tr

years, right? So they have quite um a a stock of information in them if if this theory is true, right? And this is something that is talked about and I think it's one of the reasons why the metallic um kingdom is considered to be the most potent of of all the kingdoms because it's so old and contains so much information of all this time that it's that it's passed through. um and and often um are they're they're quite pure. You know, when we're working with metals or minerals and we

13:56 · Unknown · can isolate them, um we're working with just one thing. There's something to be said about t

can isolate them, um we're working with just one thing. There's something to be said about that. It's less mixed in nature compared to like a plant or an animal is so much more complex in chemistry, right? Like if we're working with gold, it's gold, you know, once it's purified, like there's nothing else. It's just it's gold, right? uh compared to a plant with hundreds or thousands of different compounds that make them up. Yeah. Um this is kind of related I guess. Uh so there's a post

14:28 · Unknown · that you posted and it was labeled um the seeds of Venus uh it's like copper acetate crystal

that you posted and it was labeled um the seeds of Venus uh it's like copper acetate crystallizing or something like this. And then so I was wondering so is is the crystallization of a metallic acetate considered a seed of that metal in some sense and and is is it different than the spirit of the salt of a metal or similar or what's up with that? I can't remember the exact post, but I I would imagine that what I was speaking about might have been actually about crystallization specifically

15:04 · Unknown · and not not the metal. Let's say if we're talking about Venus, we're speaking about copper.

and not not the metal. Let's say if we're talking about Venus, we're speaking about copper. Um I may be speak I may have been speaking about seeding crystals. So you know if you have a super saturated solution of a soluble metal, let's say copper, we're talking you're talking about Venus here. So if we've got copper as an acetate, so let's say we've got copper and and vinegar. Um and that solution is really saturated. If we have like another small piece of a copper acetate crystal,

15:37 · Unknown · um you can introduce that to the liquid and it'll act as like a like a nucleation point wher

um you can introduce that to the liquid and it'll act as like a like a nucleation point where crystals will grow off of that seed. So that it's a seed because it kind of it it starts the process just like a seed starts a plant. You put this seed into this super saturated liquid. then you'll get this complex crystal form that will grow off of this seed, grow out of it, almost looking like, you know, like a plant emerges out of a seed but with a metal. So that that's probably what I was

16:07 · Unknown · speaking to. Some sometimes the idea of seeding something um that terminology is used um som

speaking to. Some sometimes the idea of seeding something um that terminology is used um sometimes when we're bringing um like the universal spark of life into a work when we're bringing mercury this universal animating principle um you can seed life into something you know you can bring this like some sort of chemical carrier of this spark of life um and reintroduce it into dead things like this is common. Um, you know, we were just speaking about the idea that maybe metal um, sorry, fires or acids can kill metals. Um and people who follow that path um if they do use

16:53 · Unknown · those fire the fire or acid um they may later on in the process um try to bring that spark o

those fire the fire or acid um they may later on in the process um try to bring that spark of life which they believe they've lost back into the work using some source of this universal spark of life which we call mercury. Um, so that's another example of when we might use that term, but I I think that it was the the latter, you know, with the it's a super super saturated solution and and causing crystallization by introducing a crystal to that solution. Yeah. And then so so in order to

17:30 · Unknown · purify a metal, I think it's my understanding that you first have to open it, right? Is that

purify a metal, I think it's my understanding that you first have to open it, right? Is that correct? like you have to open up the metal and then so I was I'm wondering like what could you describe what's happening when you're opening a metal to allow for that purification to begin? Yeah, it's a good question and it's kind of two different things really here. So opening really isn't purification. Opening is kind of something that happens although you can maybe argue that

17:59 · Unknown · part of um the opening um is is the purification process. So purifying would be to like sepa

part of um the opening um is is the purification process. So purifying would be to like separate um a pure mineral, metal, gemstone from an ore. You know, like if I've got this big quartz crystal growing out of this other, you know, a rock essentially. Um and we want to separate that out to just work with the quartz. Uh there's various methods that you can use, right? You can use just manual manipulation of it. Like if you can just crack off that quartz crystal, break it off with a chisel and hammer or something. That's a simple way of of it. Um but also too with purification

18:34 · Unknown · you can use different methods like smelting like melting things down or using different um a

you can use different methods like smelting like melting things down or using different um acids and bases and you know solvents in general to kind of separate one thing from another. This is this is the purification process. But the opening is is a different process. And and in my understanding, opening really has a lot to do with bringing a nonsoluble metal or mineral or gemstone into a soluble form. Uh most often what we see being created uh are salts, water soluble salts. And so this is this is kind of a first step in what I call like turning a metal inside out. Like the

19:20 · Unknown · idea that is that you know there's this soul inside of a metal that we're we're looking to t

idea that is that you know there's this soul inside of a metal that we're we're looking to tease out soul or spirit. Um both really. Um and we're looking to tease these out to use them in our work or use them use them as medicines for ourel or use them as medicines for other metals and things. Um, and this step really seems to be again about turning this non-soluble form, this very like impenetrable metal, the like the metal's gates are entirely closed at this stage, like let's say gold and metallic form. And then we're yeah, we're reducing it to or converting it

19:59 · Unknown · to a water- soluble salt. Um and in that state is when it is susceptible um to basically cat

to a water- soluble salt. Um and in that state is when it is susceptible um to basically catalyzing an oil like when we bring in unique uh menstrms that are prepared they will react with this open metal. That's the thing with metals, minerals, and gems. A lot of them are very um kind of inert, right? They don't really react. You know, when we use our basic solvents that we may use with um the plant kingdom, let's say just alcohol, you know, you throw alcohol, some some gold and some alcohol and not nothing happens. You know, you could you could throw gold

20:37 · Unknown · in the ocean for a million years and come back and it's basically just the same as it was wh

in the ocean for a million years and come back and it's basically just the same as it was when you first put it in there cuz it's that's one of the big um things about gold is that it's it's so indestructible. Um, so the opening really is about kind of getting past these really uh tightly closed gates of the metal um in order to be able to tease out the the soul or spirit of a metal or mineral or or gem. And so is it what's considered an alkah? Is that what is allowing you to open it?

21:18 · Unknown · Generally not. That's like My next really no like an alkah or philosophical mercury. Um some

Generally not. That's like My next really no like an alkah or philosophical mercury. Um sometimes these terms are used synonymously. Um some people believe that they're a couple different things, but regardless of that um that's really the last step where it's like we've we've opened the metal. So now we have let's say a salt form. It's we'll just use gold as an example. So you started with metallic gold and you've reduced this gold to um a chloride salt of the gold. Now it's water

21:53 · Unknown · soluble and now you introduce your alkaest or your philosophical mercury and this is where u

soluble and now you introduce your alkaest or your philosophical mercury and this is where um the oil is is catalyzed from this process. It's like these opened metals or minerals um they're more reactive. they're they're able to react with these specialized menstrms that we create. Um, and that's what gives birth to these oils because of course there's there's no oil actually in any of these inorganic materials. Um, but they can create oils. So it's again it's it's a it's a

22:31 · Unknown · catalyzing of an oil. Um, and that is largely dependent upon um the metal or mineral being o

catalyzing of an oil. Um, and that is largely dependent upon um the metal or mineral being opened in the first place. So opening often is done with um acids and alkalies essentially either one end of the spectrum or the other. So let's say with dry path alchemy um we'll use gemstones as an example. Gemstones can be calcined and crushed up mixed with a strong alkali like um like potassium that you can get from you know wood ashes essentially. Uh and then you melt them together. you fuse them together. So this is like a dry menstrm. The potassium the the salts from the

23:12 · Unknown · wood ashes will melt with the metal or gemstone um and melt into a homogeneous glass uh whic

wood ashes will melt with the metal or gemstone um and melt into a homogeneous glass uh which is water soluble. Uh so now it's opened and it will react readily with these specialized solvents or with the wet path. Um often you're using things like acids you know aquaria is one of the most famous ones or or aquafortus which is nitric acid whereas um aquaria is hydrochloric acid and nitric acid combined. So often these are acids or even simple vinegar right um acetates are born of of vinegar. So that's a, you know, a more mild acid that you can derive from the plant kingdom to

23:56 · Unknown · um open different metals and and minerals and even gemstones sometimes. So yeah, it's you're

um open different metals and and minerals and even gemstones sometimes. So yeah, it's you're using two different unique sets of menstrms essentially in this process where one is to open and the other is to actually catalyze uh an oil and spirit from these inorganic substances. Okay. So you you open it up with a particular menstrm and then you react it or catalyze it with an alkahest and then at some point you purge the alkahest like through a coagulation. Is that correct? Yeah, this is an

24:38 · Unknown · like an important part and I think it's something that speaks to well I think the entire phi

like an important part and I think it's something that speaks to well I think the entire philosophy of alchemy actually. So, um, I'll back it up a little. I know you've asked me about this idea of being able to perpetually create an oil from one metal. Let's say you have uh one gram of gold. Um, it's very small amount, but um, if you work well and you understand the principles at play here, you could essentially forever make the oil of gold from that one gram of gold. it it it

25:16 · Unknown · it's not really depleted. You get the gold back, right, in the process. And what it speaks t

it's not really depleted. You get the gold back, right, in the process. And what it speaks to is this simple principle that there's this universal spark of life that animates everything. We call it mercury in alchemy. And when universal mercury becomes embodied like encased in a unique physical body say this is the salt principle in alchemy that merger of universal spirit and individual body it creates a soul you know that the the the soul and sometimes people struggle the concept of okay what's a spirit and what's a soul what's the difference between these things and in

26:03 · Unknown · this particular understanding and context. You know, spirit or mercury is universal. It's it

this particular understanding and context. You know, spirit or mercury is universal. It's it's, you know, in its pure state, it's undetermined by, you know, unique bodies, right? It's this shared universal spark of life that is in absolutely everything. Um but when it enters into a physical body that unique enc casement of that universal spark of life it's it's like it's able to express uniquely that universal principle and that unique expression of that universal principle of life.

26:39 · Unknown · Mercury is the soul the the sulfur that and it's born of it. And this is played out very cle

Mercury is the soul the the sulfur that and it's born of it. And this is played out very clearly with the metallic work because you see it in front of your eyes. You've got something that has no oil in it, right? Like a metal or a mineral, there's there's no oil. Um, and a spirit, this unique, let's say, alkaest or philosophical mer here. Many names that these menstrms go by, but it this this menstrm that you're using, it is a carrier, a representative of this universal spark of life. when you when you bring them together an open metal or mineral and gem

27:15 · Unknown · with this this solvent um that's where these oils are produced. So this this philosophy is u

with this this solvent um that's where these oils are produced. So this this philosophy is um is confirmed you know with this this chemical reality um you know we've got this spiritual idea that you know a spirit in a body creates a soul uh but we see it in the lab work when we do it and I think that's really the the sign of truth right when your philosophy and your laboratory practice are completely harmonious with one another um to me that holism marks truth and it's this is such a

27:48 · Unknown · a simple but also brand truth, right? This concept of a universal spirit in an individual bo

a simple but also brand truth, right? This concept of a universal spirit in an individual body. Um, you know, it's it's happening well in all of life, right? It's not just the metals. Like we can make that same example with plants. You know, plants draw up um you know, metals and minerals largely solubilized metals and minerals. you know, it's there's bacteria and there's um fungi and things like that in the soil which will make available these metals and minerals to the plants. The

28:21 · Unknown · um this unique relationship between the roots of the plant and bacteria and and uh and fungi

um this unique relationship between the roots of the plant and bacteria and and uh and fungi. Um, this this relationship will will help draw up and and and convert these metals and minerals into usable forms just like we do with the metallic work. And then the plant draws it up into itself and then the plant has these unique um representatives of let's say spirit or mercury. Like plants have alcohols and they have acids, they have ketones, they have these things that we think of as solvents or spirits. uh and then when they mix with these metals and minerals that the

29:01 · Unknown · plants are consuming new compounds are formed of that. So like this this is repeated all thr

plants are consuming new compounds are formed of that. So like this this is repeated all throughout life where these universal spirits are or carriers of the universal spirit spirit um combine with unique physical bodies and of that unique organic compounds are created um which are essentially um chemical carriers of what we call the soul or the sulfur in alchemy. So it's a again it's very simple but it's a grandiose truth I think in a lot of ways it's like which I think a lot of

29:39 · Unknown · the the best truths of alchemy really are quite quite simple you know it's sometimes the fir

the the best truths of alchemy really are quite quite simple you know it's sometimes the first time you take a stab at something you know you go the long way you go the long and the hard way you learn your lessons you get to your your your final destination point then you can look back and see oh I I should have gone this way instead of that way and you get better and better and better at But once you arrive at, you know, closer to the truth, it just keeps getting more and more simple,

30:06 · Unknown · right? And this principle, I think, is is so simple. Universal animating spark of life when

right? And this principle, I think, is is so simple. Universal animating spark of life when it's encapsulated in a unique body, it expresses that universal principle of life uniquely. And that's what we refer to as um a soul, you know, and with the metallic work. Um this is a key concept. I mean, and there are things that dip outside of this, you know, these um basic steps we talked about like opening the metal and then or purifying it first and then opening it and then catalyzing an oil with these special solvents. Like there there's of course many other paths that

30:44 · Unknown · um follow something similar or or even go a completely different direction. But this is a ma

um follow something similar or or even go a completely different direction. But this is a major topic that you can find throughout um you know thousands of years of of ideas and alchemy. It always shows its head these um wet and dry path ways of working with metals. Um and it and it makes sense of it you know because again you can't extract an oil from from a metal right there there there is no there is no oil to be extracted from it but it can be born of it. And and again, I think the truth speaks loudly because we see this all throughout life. Like I made the example

31:23 · Unknown · with a plant pulling up these metals and minerals and creating these unique organic compound

with a plant pulling up these metals and minerals and creating these unique organic compounds um which are you know imagine a plant's producing all these compounds which create the smells and tastes uh and effects that we know of as a plant. And we can think of those as like personality traits of these plants, right? And personality trait is you know it's the soul of the plant. So these this concept just works so easily um throughout. So I know there's a like bit of a digression from

31:54 · Unknown · um your question about uh purging the solvent, but I think it's it's an important kind of fo

um your question about uh purging the solvent, but I think it's it's an important kind of foundation to lay down to understand um the purging of the solvent in the end too because I think there's a very um important um and unique thing that happens at this stage. you know, I think superficially it's these solvents um tend to not be um safe for consumption. So, on one one hand, we we want to remove these from the final product because they're not so safe. Like many of the spirits that

32:28 · Unknown · we use in the metallic kingdom, let's say they're strongly acetone based and although aceton

we use in the metallic kingdom, let's say they're strongly acetone based and although acetone is in our blood, um we don't want to consume too much of it. Um so, and it's very strong smelling and tasting. And so you want to remove it. But there's something really special that happens in this process of removing it if you work in a certain way which again speaks to this simple philosophy that alchemy outlines of you know a spirit entering a body and a soul being born. Basically

33:00 · Unknown · you know we we've got our open metal. We've got our alkaest let's say or philosophical mercu

you know we we've got our open metal. We've got our alkaest let's say or philosophical mercury. They come together, they create um an oil and then you gently distill it off, you know, to remove it. But by gently distilling it off, you you take a little bit of the volatile soul, you know, the volatile constituents of this oil that's being created. Some of it will distill over. So imagine this is like a philosophical death that's happening, right? you know, we've we've created this this oil um in this open mineral and then some of it's being

33:43 · Unknown · removed. You know, the the soul and the spirit, the body is essentially dying in in in a way

removed. You know, the the soul and the spirit, the body is essentially dying in in in a way and the soul and the spirit are passing over in this distillation and then it can be returned to that same body. You know, it speaks to the idea of reincarnation and that our souls evolve with this process of dying and being reborn over and over again. And and again this is perfectly reflected in the physics or the chemistry of what happens in this process because when we distill out uh the alkaest or philosophical mercury and it carries with it these new volatile compounds when

34:24 · Unknown · we bring that back to the open salt and cohobate again bring them back together again these

we bring that back to the open salt and cohobate again bring them back together again these oils that are carried over they start reacting with the salts as well. So basically what you get is more and more and more soul by repeating this simple process of separating the spirit and the soul from the body and bringing putting it back into the into the body repeating over and over again like this idea of reincarnation. The the soul or the oil in this case becomes more rich. It becomes more abundant. It becomes more aromatic. Um becomes more complex. Um so I think it again

35:03 · Unknown · speaks to this very um physical confirmation of this concept of life and death and repeating

speaks to this very um physical confirmation of this concept of life and death and repeating that cycle like the soul's evolution through its death and rebirth in a body. This is so interesting. Um because there was something that you had wrote written I think you say written that you had I don't know whatever you said uh after you purge it of its alcohest you you then then it it's ready for its fresh clothes or something like it's ready for its in impregnation or something along those

35:42 · Unknown · lines. and and uh it reminded me of like when you said it's ready for its fresh clothes. Thi

lines. and and uh it reminded me of like when you said it's ready for its fresh clothes. This idea of uh that Ike has spoken to me about about like the astral garments as the soul is being incarnate um and it's kind of collecting its astral garments as it's coming down. And I don't know, I just thought that was interesting. Do do you you know what I'm talking about, Ike? Well, there's a lot of stuff actually that he that that Dan's talking about that uh is really platonic. Um I think that

36:19 · Unknown · you know and we made a little bit of a digression there, but it's important because not I do

you know and we made a little bit of a digression there, but it's important because not I don't think all the listeners are going to necessarily be on the same level that we kind of are out of the gate here. So, I think it was good we defined certain ideas and terms. And one of the the things that that Dan said about particularly the soul, right? We we understand the the soul being the sulfur and this these kind of um uh if we want to look at them as the qualities of selfhood and things like that. uh it corresponds directly in platonic philosophy and platonic metaphysics with

36:59 · Unknown · the idea that the soul is this internal process of selfhood but also as Dan said it is the a

the idea that the soul is this internal process of selfhood but also as Dan said it is the animating spark. It's very very important because a lot of people will mix that up. they'll start talking, you know, they don't know the difference like, you know, to Dan's point earlier, people don't understand what's the difference between soul, what's the difference between spirit and um I think it's really important to emphasize that. I mean, this is consistent with 2500 years worth of

37:30 · Unknown · cosmology, metaphysics, and philosophy is that the soul is what animates things. that that s

cosmology, metaphysics, and philosophy is that the soul is what animates things. that that spark of life that enters into something that when you look at me and you can see the life behind my eyes, that's my soul. Um, and so there's a lot of platonic crossover here that every time I go through because I don't speak as much, you know, obviously I have I've have a lot of experience in biochem, but I don't speak at the same or I don't look at alchemy. my mind isn't habituated with in

38:10 · Unknown · terms of scientific vernacular. I just don't prefer it. Um I can hang with it, but I don't l

terms of scientific vernacular. I just don't prefer it. Um I can hang with it, but I don't like it. Uh so what I'm what I'm listening to and hearing really is despite all this, there's this tremendous platonic thing that's coming through. And I can't remember if it was Dan or somebody else. might have been somebody else uh told me that when I was looking for I mean Sky might have been you when I was looking for early on um in the Arcanum channel when I was looking for references uh for alchemy to read resources somebody uh told me that I had to

38:46 · Unknown · read the golden chain of Homer and when I picked up the actual copy in Latin it's platonis i

read the golden chain of Homer and when I picked up the actual copy in Latin it's platonis it's the golden chain of Plato uh you know um which I found really really interesting. So, you start go flipping through this thing and it's really using it's an a specifically alchemical text really um central to a lot of uh a lot of alchemists that I respect a lot of their their work and their philosophy and understanding and it discusses through the home works and platonic philosophy the

39:21 · Unknown · interconnectivity of everything in existence. So, um yeah, I think there's a lot of interpla

interconnectivity of everything in existence. So, um yeah, I think there's a lot of interplay here. Uh I think Scott what you were talking about is the astral garments of pfery which essentially when the soul incarnates it kind of has this tab tabloa state right because the symbolic narrative that we use to describe really the soul's death to the to that spiritual world. It has to in order to incarnate for that life spirit that animating force to vivify things which are otherwise dead

40:03 · Unknown · materially it has to die to that material realm. And in a human being uh in in in the platon

materially it has to die to that material realm. And in a human being uh in in in the platonic sort of you know symbolic narrative we say that the soul drinks from the river leth which means that it takes a draft of that water before incarnating and forgets everything that happened beforehand. This is a symbolic you know tabular rosa but it's a symbolic narrative for that spiritual death that the soul must undergo and then as it moves closer as it becomes encossmic meaning within the cosmos

40:40 · Unknown · it descends through the planetary spheres and each one receives uh this is now specifically

it descends through the planetary spheres and each one receives uh this is now specifically pfury working within um you know obviously the platonic and late platonic neoplatonic millu he's talking about how the the blank soul sort of at each of the spheres takes on a vice and a virtue and this is these are the astral garments the accretions that we put on um and again poetically symbolically gradually weigh us down and we we succumb more and more to earth's gravity and the final product is really based on this um this uh experience of of taking things on. Now, I don't I

41:22 · Unknown · don't know how much that correlates to uh to Dan's understanding of alchemy. I would assume

don't know how much that correlates to uh to Dan's understanding of alchemy. I would assume that there's some there's there's something in there, but uh I think that's what you were referring to, right, Sky? Totally. Strong strong correlation, you know, that's that's it's all the same stuff. We're just, you know, saying it in different ways, you know, and some of what you said there got me thinking, you know, because in alchemy, we've got the fixed and the volatile soul,

41:51 · Unknown · right? Right. So the volatile soul or sulfur is considered the higher and indestructible sou

right? Right. So the volatile soul or sulfur is considered the higher and indestructible soul. The idea is that you know only that which is true can survive the fire. You know and when we you know if we are to subject let's say an oil let's say we've created from a metal to fire you know only a portion of it will distill over without being adulterated. And it's a very very small portion of it. It's like the idea that um you know maybe our souls evolve beyond a single life um but we

42:30 · Unknown · we leave be we leave behind a lot of what made up that soul in its past life. Right? And we

we leave be we leave behind a lot of what made up that soul in its past life. Right? And we see that physically in alchemy where most of the the sulfur is not volatile. Um, you know, you could force it over at higher degrees of temperature, but it gets it changes entirely. It becomes carcinogenic when it starts to burn, but there's this very very volatile portion of that which is it shares um a boiling point with the spirit or the chemical carrier of the spirit and they they travel travel over together and they're they're almost inseparable. You know, there's the idea that only

43:07 · Unknown · God can make that perfect separation because these things just they stay together and it's l

God can make that perfect separation because these things just they stay together and it's like, you know, you get mostly spirit coming over, but then this tiny tiny tiny little bit of volatile sulfur, which you could say determines that little bit of universal spirit still to an individualized uh selfhood, like you said, that can be then returned um in reincarnation to to a body that that physically is is represented in this process that we're describing of like distilling off the alkaester mercury and then returning it over and over and over again to the the salts.

43:43 · Unknown · And it's an interesting thing and maybe maybe there's a platonic relationship here. I'm not

And it's an interesting thing and maybe maybe there's a platonic relationship here. I'm not sure. But the end goal here when you do this is, you know, eventually this process stops creating more oil. And what you'll see and smell is these unique volatile compounds that distill over at first. Eventually they don't any longer. And what you get is, you know, supposedly this perfect merging between, you know, the totally um non-physical and physical side of life. You've got this body and spirit, and you've you've now fixed the volatile, so to speak.

44:23 · Unknown · This spirit which is volatile, this spark of life through this succession of living and dyin

This spirit which is volatile, this spark of life through this succession of living and dying and living and dying and living and dying eventually reaches a state of of balance of equilibrium where this thing is embodied. This this universal spirit um and it it becomes um you know perfected uh and supposedly immortal or all these you know grandiose claims that come with it. And I can say it's it's embodied. It it's you you even even like the the hermetic or or you could even look at it

45:00 · Unknown · as as having a correlation to Freemasonry with the square and the compasses. This idea of sq

as as having a correlation to Freemasonry with the square and the compasses. This idea of squaring the circle that geometrically intractable problem, right? where um the square representing angularity is the physical matter, the material the this the you know the material realm itself and and then the the circle having no angularity, no beginning, no point, no end uh is is a representative of eternity. And the merger of these two is the completion of the great work really. And and so you see it's really interesting because all all of the stuff we're talking about are spiritual

45:38 · Unknown · analoges. They're they're material phenomenon that mirror a pro an eternal process but also

analoges. They're they're material phenomenon that mirror a pro an eternal process but also a primordial process right and so it it's applicable to everything particularly when you look at the works of zasimus of penopoulos the the you know metallurgist who his foundational text uh regarding alchemy he talks about basically look we found this pattern in metals and we found it in plants but as we continue to look, we realize it's everywhere, it applies to the soul, it applies to

46:14 · Unknown · the spirit, it applies to the body. Um, so what you're talking about here is essentially is

the spirit, it applies to the body. Um, so what you're talking about here is essentially is the goal of initiation. It's not even just alchemy, you know. So this it's really interesting to me. I'm I'm very uh gets me excited. Yeah. No, it's it's amazing. And and you know, it's to what you said too about the chemistry. It's like alchemy is what made me interested in chemistry because I started to see, you know, I had more of an academic interest in the esoteric and occult. Um,

46:46 · Unknown · you know, I was interested because it just seemed like everybody important throughout histor

you know, I was interested because it just seemed like everybody important throughout history was interested in it. And um, so that that drew me to it. But when I started practicing alchemy, I started seeing these philosophical spiritual ideas physically manifesting in front of me, giving me these external examples to peer at and say, "Oh, wow." Like this makes sense now. You know, so for me it became well very helpful to start understanding uh chemistry because it helped me become a better alchemist because we're dealing with these physical vehicles. And I think

47:23 · Unknown · that's a really important point for people to understand is that you know sulfur is not the

that's a really important point for people to understand is that you know sulfur is not the essential oil of a plant and the spirit is not the alcohol from a plant. Like those are examples of physical characters or carriers of these philosophical principles. There are all these different ways which these non-physical things can manifest. And some of these vehicles let's call them are better than others. like they are more alike their philosophical principle than not. So they they become better and you see these things move around and you know like move back and

48:01 · Unknown · forth between different chemicals and things like that in the work you know and you know it'

forth between different chemicals and things like that in the work you know and you know it's really about understanding this correlation between physical and non-physical and finding how um they agree or disagree with one another. So the chemistry has just become uh so much more interesting because again it's it's giving me these solid like bite and chew on examples to to prove out these philosophies or spiritual ideas. You know it's hap and then you realize you know it's not just happening of course outside of you in this lab work but it's of

48:38 · Unknown · course happening inside you as well. And we could, you know, we could go on a huge tangent a

course happening inside you as well. And we could, you know, we could go on a huge tangent about that about biological processes and how they, you know, are doing all the same things that we're doing in the lab work externally, right? Yeah. And I mean I mean when I was going to school, I went back to school when I joined the Golden Dawn and I began studying this stuff, you know, I was going for um well, I went for uh uh body work and physical therapy and so there's a tremendous amount of

49:06 · Unknown · biochem and things like that in there. And then I and then I eventually parlayed into Chines

biochem and things like that in there. And then I and then I eventually parlayed into Chinese medicine. So what I really got to see is that very interesting crossover for you look at things like on an atomic level just the basic principles of how things are put together positive, negative and neutral, right? This is triopa you know so simple. Yeah. And not only that but when studying cabala it's the superal triad and then as I get into Greek philosophy it's the three hypotheses. We're talking about a a a primordial, you know, this this one substance that behaved

49:43 · Unknown · or or went through underwent three phases. And since that time, right, as Eliotti would say,

or or went through underwent three phases. And since that time, right, as Eliotti would say, Enilo tempor since that time, everything that has ever come into existence has been some reflection of that threefold permutation. And not only that, but then you see the the binary, right, which is also a key factor in in things like uh like alchemy, celestial salt, celestial niter, and and we have in Cabala, we have the two pillars of mercy and severity, Yakim and Boaz, Hermes and Solomon. You've got this obviously, yeah, there's lots of gray area, but the binary is necessary to

50:27 · Unknown · create the spectrum. And you see a lot of that in biochem with with like you look at enzymes

create the spectrum. And you see a lot of that in biochem with with like you look at enzymes and things like that. a lock and key system it's called. You know what I'm saying? So, chemistry, biochem, chemistry of all sorts is it's it's the greatest affirmation that these wacky sages on a mountain somewhere, you know, 2,000 years ago were [ __ ] right. You know, they figured it out without [ __ ] microscopes, you know. So, it's it is very important. Um, I tend to, you know, it's

51:01 · Unknown · I tend to, um, I really enjoy it and I love it, but it's it's not something I I feel like I'

I tend to, um, I really enjoy it and I love it, but it's it's not something I I feel like I'm an expert at. So, I I try not to speak about things I'm not an expert at, but I love listening to you guys go back and forth because you have much more of a handle on it in terms of how it applies alchemically. So, but I that's why I think this is a really unique and special kind of right. We're doing this this interesting triad conversation tonight where there's this alchemical and and and

51:32 · Unknown · um you know scientific kind of uh symposium going on. But then also we're tying it back to i

um you know scientific kind of uh symposium going on. But then also we're tying it back to initiation trying tying it back to philosophy and to really show that alchemically that al alchemy is applicable to everything. And that's what's so perplexing about it, right? Because you could be when you talk about alchemy, you be talking about anything. Every everything goes, right? People always say, "Oh, sorry. Maybe that was off topic." And it's like impossible. It would

52:02 · Unknown · be so impressive if you could find something that was off topic when talking about alchemy,

be so impressive if you could find something that was off topic when talking about alchemy, right? It's just, and again, back to the simplicity of it, too. It's like really everything is only doing one thing. as complex as that one thing is, everybody and everything is only doing one thing. You know, when you when you break it down to that that polarity, like you said, um you know, it's just this it's these two poles that they've been separated and they appear to be opposite to one

52:36 · Unknown · another yet they're on this journey of finding how they can merge as one again. you know, ev

another yet they're on this journey of finding how they can merge as one again. you know, everything is going through that process of of finding this balance point. Um, you know, and it's interesting because it's like that balance point is, you know, universal in the sense that anything and everything is, you know, either whole, it's that one that wholeness like at the beginning of things or these things are going back um these opposites are moving back towards that wholeness. So there's

53:12 · Unknown · that one part which is very universal and let's call it like um fate but then there's the in

that one part which is very universal and let's call it like um fate but then there's the individual side of it too where the the balance point for everything um is not necessarily the same place. So you get this uniqueness too where these polarities are playing out in in almost infinite amount of ways and and balance points um can be found harmony can be found in many many many different ways. So, you've got fate and free will kind of coexisting. Yeah. Um, you know, everybody's doing the same thing. Um, but we're doing it uniquely, which is, I mean, it makes

53:48 · Unknown · for a great show. That's for sure. There's, you know, it's it's not boring life. That's ther

for a great show. That's for sure. There's, you know, it's it's not boring life. That's there's um there's a question that I had in mind in the beginning, but I wanted to kind of let you and Sky kind of go down that the trajectory you were on because it was sort of unfolding in a really organic way, but it goes back to the the idea of um the the thing the thing for me that that I'm interested to know. So you you and I have spoken and you you do you have a very strong hold on the

54:20 · Unknown · vernacular of alchemy but also on chemistry but I've also found that you have a very strongh

vernacular of alchemy but also on chemistry but I've also found that you have a very stronghold on the symbolic vocabularies that we use. You know you and I were talking about astrology the last time we met and and and and biodnamic uh growing and things like that. So, I'm wondering if right, you know, somebody like me who has a history with addiction with particularly noxious substances um like cocaine, things like that. Do you find that addictive or or not maybe not even the compounds

54:55 · Unknown · themselves but the the the plants from which they are synthesized do they have uh these addi

themselves but the the the plants from which they are synthesized do they have uh these addictive plants do they have a particular signature? You know is there a particular quality to them? What is the quality of their their sulfur maybe that or or or any part of their their constituents um that that you might have found? I mean, do you work with plants like that? Because I mean, even things like mahang, right? I mean, the ephedan plant, it's just it's a very common plant. We were just talking about that the other day, Daniel. Oh, yeah. It's true. Yeah. Yeah. No,

55:32 · Unknown · we were. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It's I don't think that there's one particular signature and I

we were. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It's I don't think that there's one particular signature and I actually think you know I'll slightly just go off a little bit topic here but I think it speaks to what what um Gabbermate speaks about as this idea of the root of addictions right I think it depends on what is the source of the pain that causes the addiction so I think it could be anything right you know you could really you could be addicted to almost anything sure there are certain things

56:02 · Unknown · um that are more likely to cause addictions than others. But, you know, when you really dive

um that are more likely to cause addictions than others. But, you know, when you really dive deep into it, you know, not everybody who tries cocaine gets addicted to it. Not everybody who tries heroin gets addicted to it. When you look at some of the most addictive substances derived essentially from plants originally. Um, not everybody gravitates to the same thing, you know, and then, you know, we could talk about addictive behaviors and all these different things. And I think it really reflects, okay, you've got a source of pain. It's part of your journey. And

56:38 · Unknown · addictions are a not so great way to medicate that pain. And and pain is so subjective. So i

addictions are a not so great way to medicate that pain. And and pain is so subjective. So it could be any, you know, planetary signature of an herb or a metal. It could be anything. I think it just it's this reflection of of um pain and seeking to heal despite how you know bad an addiction can be for the body or for the spirit. Um it is still an attempt in the end to heal even if it's not a great one or or you know the best the best way to do it. Um so it's unique you know so not what

57:20 · Unknown · about things like coffee do you think you know something that these simple addictions that w

about things like coffee do you think you know something that these simple addictions that we kind of take for granted tobacco those are Mars plants right and so that's it you will see that correlation right so it's like you know the big answer to the question is yeah it could be anything and everything but then you've got the heavy hitters right like Mars just has that crazy fire to it right so you get these strong substances actually you get a lot of really alkaloid rich plants that fall under the banner of Mars. Um or let's say you get a lot of

57:53 · Unknown · um psychoactive plants or poisonous plants that fall under the banner of Saturn, you know. S

um psychoactive plants or poisonous plants that fall under the banner of Saturn, you know. So there's there's some like you know some spots in ast astrological rulerships where you can say oh yeah there's there's a lot more like addictive substances which fall under these certain classifications um compared to say you know Venus like the the the malefific planets uh often have a lot of these substances categorized underneath them right like Saturn uh and Mars. So yeah, I mean there's there's some patterns there for sure. Well, yeah, and you're right. Right.

58:31 · Unknown · Because I mean it's that typically that will be some kind of compensation. So it it does, yo

Because I mean it's that typically that will be some kind of compensation. So it it does, you know, it I think there's something to what you're saying. It's a very interesting point. The what is what's going on inside the person that is drawing them to fire or drawing them to, you know, Saturn, which is more earthy aura or or, you know, um sort of uh dark and distant. So, so yeah, I think that there that's a very interesting and and nuanced approach there. And Saturn, I think

59:04 · Unknown · one thing to think about with Saturn plants is like it's it's protection, right? Saturn is t

one thing to think about with Saturn plants is like it's it's protection, right? Saturn is that leaden shell, right? So sometimes when you know there's a pain and you want to protect yourself, you want to hide away, right? So Saturn plants come through there, you know, like I mean there's there's a million things that we an infinite amount of things we could think of in in kind of psychoanalyzing um addictions and and the the rulerships of the substances that are that people

59:37 · Unknown · are addicted to. Um but again, I think it all comes down to that root of the wound that we'r

are addicted to. Um but again, I think it all comes down to that root of the wound that we're trying to heal. You know, you know, whether it's a great way to do it or not, you know, that's that's a whole other topic. But, you know, that that's what I'd say the the root of all this is is is is pain is being separate, right? It's like you used to be this one thing and you've been ripped apart and have amnesia and and you know at whatever level of consciousness you are of that that

1:00:07 · Unknown · you're you're you're trying to make your way home and um feel whole again, right? Feel be he

you're you're you're trying to make your way home and um feel whole again, right? Feel be healed. So, buy some sperics at Secret Fire Apothecary and Kira all Well, let me let me give you a plug real quick. I was sick as [ __ ] for like two weeks and I told I think I somehow Sky and Meg found out. So, they sent me a bottle of ureia. The [ __ ] thing took care of it in like two days. It was done. That shit's amazing. Dead. And and you know the thing is too it it had this I didn't dilute

1:00:43 · Unknown · it because it was so bad in my throat. I don't either. I want I want You feel it. You're lik

it because it was so bad in my throat. I don't either. I want I want You feel it. You're like, "Oh yeah, that's that's doing something." Yes. Yes. Oh my god. It was like It was like I don't know like little tiny worker gnomes started construction on my throat. It was like unbel unbelievable. It was uh you could really feel it and um and a little boost of in energy, you know, and and uh I definitely I this can be a little TMI, right? But that's what Ether podcast is for

1:01:16 · Unknown · is to is to just kind of just let the hair down. I had um a really nice burst of of energy a

is to is to just kind of just let the hair down. I had um a really nice burst of of energy and a clarity of consciousness for about 20 minutes to a half hour after I took the echanatia tincture. It took care of everything in my that was going on in my in my throat. Um, and to be honest, like I've taken a lot of people's I've taken a few other tinctures and like all they did was give me really bad diarrhea. Now that might be that might be like Yeah. Something that's going on in me. But

1:01:49 · Unknown · I I had a very very very it like can I say clean? You know, it was a very clean experience.

I I had a very very very it like can I say clean? You know, it was a very clean experience. So very bright. Well, I think, you know, really that's what we're trying to do with alchemy, right? Is is strip away the dross like right. Right. We're going through these processes of of figuring out what we're not in order to get closer to what we are. Or or you know that's a personal journey or we do the same thing with plants or metals is like we're stripping away um these leaden

1:02:25 · Unknown · shells that are holding back the innate potential the highest potential that everything's go

shells that are holding back the innate potential the highest potential that everything's got built into itself. Right? So when you start stripping away these layers, not just stripping away, but trans transforming or transmuting them, um it's cleaner. Yeah. It's clearer, you know. It's like the the signature, the energy, the essence of that thing is is is it rings like a bell, you know? It starts to get clearer and better and then you have less of what you don't want and and more of what you want from an effect. Of course, sometimes we need to we need to clean

1:03:00 · Unknown · and we need to purge. So sometimes um that's what we're looking for and certainly if you wan

and we need to purge. So sometimes um that's what we're looking for and certainly if you want that if you want that experience I could I could give you some plants that will do that. Yeah, the the echania is special and that's that's one that you know I saw from from seed disperic, right? like that's that's a plant that was grown here just down the road for me and my friend John's farm and uh you know we handled it from the beginning to the end right like like every stage of its life

1:03:32 · Unknown · uh passed through my hands which is like a really unique relationship that you can have with

uh passed through my hands which is like a really unique relationship that you can have with medicine right you we we can't say that of of metals you know I can't plant gold and then turn turn it into an oil but with the plants yeah we we can participate in that entire life cycle. Um so that's special and then you know quality control you know when you grow the plants really well like you know organically you give them what they need you get a good growing season maybe um you could

1:04:03 · Unknown · bring in all these other elements too like with biodnamics you're bringing in astrology and

bring in all these other elements too like with biodnamics you're bringing in astrology and and and you know kind of regenerative agricultural practices and all this stuff and that leads to of course a very strong plant and then um harvesting at ideal time um processing immediately after harvesting like all these things um contribute to like a really good medicine in the end. Even even just a simple basic speric tincture like that uh that echgonatia tincture um can have really um powerful effects you know and and that is one of my favorites honestly like I I don't travel

1:04:42 · Unknown · anywhere without it cuz yeah if you get like the best way to use it is if as soon as you fee

anywhere without it cuz yeah if you get like the best way to use it is if as soon as you feel like an inkling that you're going to get sick that's the moment to hit it right you feel a little tickle or like you're a little rund down and you're feeling tired you feel like something might get you like that's the perfect moment because often you can prevent the illness entirely, but you can use it as a treatment as well. But it really shines as like a preventative in the in that moment where something is invading, right? You can feel like your guard is down, something's

1:05:13 · Unknown · trying to make its way in and it just like it's just a big no. You know, you put that echina

trying to make its way in and it just like it's just a big no. You know, you put that echination in there and it just stops it uh in its tracks. You know, frequent dosing is is the way to do it. you know, for 2, three days when it's hitting you, just like every couple hours, take some. Um, and do that until you don't feel it anymore. And, uh, often you won't get sick. Like, I rarely, really, rarely get sick. The only there's like two things that lead to me getting sick. Like,

1:05:42 · Unknown · one is, you know, getting to a certain level of stress or some sort of whatever negative um,

one is, you know, getting to a certain level of stress or some sort of whatever negative um, feeling in life. And the other uh, is if I don't have echynatia. you know, if I I feel that tickle and I don't have the echgonatia, it might get me. But if I have it, you know, as a line of defense, um yeah, nine times out of 10, I don't get sick. I just get the, you know, tickle in my throat or something. There's a really interesting uh sort of correlation also or or experiment that can happen

1:06:13 · Unknown · for people that are are magicians. We talk a lot about, right, everybody talks about astrolo

for people that are are magicians. We talk a lot about, right, everybody talks about astrological magic. is very popular now. But the astrological magic is predicated on the idea of of synthet you know these occult virtues which are uh the the the mixed and permutative essences uh of the gods uh or or you know maybe the platonic forms I don't know um but it's that the the essences you were talking about that that you we could never find them in their fullness here but we can only ever

1:06:47 · Unknown · find them in permutation. So, it's predicated on being able to find that stuff and discern i

find them in permutation. So, it's predicated on being able to find that stuff and discern it in plant material in in in you know mineral material in in metals and in animal materials as well. It's a big part of you know there was that was in paraselus's materiamemedica and it's it's a huge portion of all traditional medicines uh and their materiamedica so or or pharmacopia but one thing that I found to be a real boon in my magical practice is to take a a really a real spajira tincture is to in some way assimilate the signature. You now have a nosis. You have a you

1:07:30 · Unknown · have an experience, an experiential knowledge of the signature of that herb or whatever it i

have an experience, an experiential knowledge of the signature of that herb or whatever it is. You know, I know what this feels like now. And it's easier to identify the signatures for the purposes of magic when you have taken that plant spuric into your body. Yeah. You know, I think it's interesting when you go go back, it's all these traditions always had some they embibed something, you know, and that's something I feel like has been stripped away um in many many traditions

1:08:05 · Unknown · that have, you know, lasted the ages or have been passed down through the ages and gone thro

that have, you know, lasted the ages or have been passed down through the ages and gone through their various incarnations is that you see a lot of stripping away of the actual taking of things. You know, sure we may we may still have the magical tools which you know um can play their own very important part of course in things like magic, but um taking away that that you know ingestion of something literally putting something inside your body and letting it uh fill you up with its signature is a really really important thing. And you know it's actually it reminds me

1:08:40 · Unknown · of an analogy I use often you know my clinical practice my clinical herbalism practice is th

of an analogy I use often you know my clinical practice my clinical herbalism practice is that I I speak about the plants or any medicines you're taking about like music right you imagine that your body is like this orchestra. It's it's it's got all these instruments um creating hopefully a harmonious um timely piece of music. And then when we fall ill for whatever reason, there's there's parts of our orchestra which are failing. You know, some somebody's singing too sharp or

1:09:10 · Unknown · flat or the drummer can't keep time anymore and a certain part, you know, it's like, you kno

flat or the drummer can't keep time anymore and a certain part, you know, it's like, you know, these little bits and bobs of our own little inner music go off, right? And and for whatever reason, uh we can't remember how to play that part correctly any longer. But then we've got nature which has this vast array of things which are also singing songs you know and we can look to nature to find you know herbs or mushrooms and metals and gemstones which are singing that same song

1:09:42 · Unknown · of health which is missing or or or imbalanced in our self. And then when we bring it back i

of health which is missing or or or imbalanced in our self. And then when we bring it back into the body, um, you know, it's not just that it's doing the work for us, but it's it's reminding that aspect of our own health, like, oh yeah, no, no, no. Here, here's the beat. Get back on it. It's like you're you're bringing a guitar tuner into it or like a metronome or something like that to help remind the body, which is I think a a great thing about natural medicine is that um,

1:10:08 · Unknown · you know, when used correctly, it's not creating a reliance upon that substance. We talked a

you know, when used correctly, it's not creating a reliance upon that substance. We talked about addiction. you know, it you don't need it anymore, right? Like on once you once you you're back on track and you're you're singing your song correctly again, the orchestra's, you know, back together and sounding good, um you don't feel that hunger for that thing any longer. You know, it's left its impression and and and now you can go on and do it yourself. Um but yeah, it's,

1:10:37 · Unknown · you know, I think it's um yeah, an interesting way to look at this like vastness of, you kno

you know, I think it's um yeah, an interesting way to look at this like vastness of, you know, you mentioned like pretty much anything outside of ourselves can act as a medicine, right? It's like these these outer reflections of things that are inside of ourselves. I got to chime in. Okay, so you said this was probably like 10 minutes back, but you said transformation and transmutation in the same sentence. And that's something I wanted to ask you about. I wanted to ask you what is the

1:11:11 · Unknown · difference between transforming and transmuting? That's a it's a big question um more on the

difference between transforming and transmuting? That's a it's a big question um more on the transmutation side of things because I think it's something that's argued about in in the literature um and something I'm still finding my own place with. So like transformation is just the process of change, right? So I think it's it's it's a bit more open-ended and vast than transmutation. So if we'd say transformation is the process of change. Um let's say for example, you know, you've got an

1:11:48 · Unknown · essential oil and it's in an oil, right? And then when you heat it, it turns into a gas and

essential oil and it's in an oil, right? And then when you heat it, it turns into a gas and you condense it and turns back into an oil again. Like it's gone through a change, you know, inarguably. But it hasn't turned into something else, right? Transmutation is when something turns into something else. And I think that is, you know, definitely a worthy topic of debate and has been a topic of debate, you know, back and forth between alchemists and, you know, many other people um forever, you know, is the idea, can something turn into something else or what is the definition

1:12:27 · Unknown · of that? Right? You know, because we could say, you know, there there's the most overt obvio

of that? Right? You know, because we could say, you know, there there's the most overt obvious example in alchemy of like, okay, you could turn base metals into gold. So, you could take some physical lead and turn it into gold. I haven't done it. I'm not convinced um you know, by anybody else. I I hear that it's I don't completely rule it out. Um, part of me like there's a part of this like that's just uninteresting to me. Like I think lead is awesome as itself and gold is awesome

1:13:02 · Unknown · that itself and like I'm not super interested in converting the lead into the gold so much.

that itself and like I'm not super interested in converting the lead into the gold so much. But m maybe it's true. So that's like a stark example of this idea of transmutation of something literally turning into something else. But then we can get more subtle with it, right? Um maybe like for example let's look at a like a very basic spajeric process like a spajeric tincture in this simple process you know you extract an herb with some alcohol and you burn the plant material afterwards

1:13:32 · Unknown · and extract these salts and then you put them back together and something happens right it's

and extract these salts and then you put them back together and something happens right it's it's different than you know I gave the example of an essential oil being heated and turning into a gas and then being cooled and turned back to the essential oil like it's gone through a a process of change, but it's not something different, right? But chemically speaking, even with a very simple process like a speric tincture, you you've got these compounds which which are opposing one another. This polarity that we've been talking about tonight. So polarity of

1:14:07 · Unknown · let's say alkali mineral salts and largely acidic active constituents which you have extract

let's say alkali mineral salts and largely acidic active constituents which you have extracted um from the plant. they're opposing one another and then when you combine them together new compounds are created as a result of that. So I think an argument can be made there that there has been a transmutation. Is it the be all end all like you know the process is not finished at that point you know this is not the philosopher stone but this is a step along the way perhaps this is a you know a

1:14:42 · Unknown · first step of transmutation cuz chemically speaking it's like something has turn like there

first step of transmutation cuz chemically speaking it's like something has turn like there are many things that turn from one thing into another thing. That argument can get quite nuanced though, right? You know, as we dive deeper and deeper into it, it's harder. It It's less of a clear example than if we turned lead into gold. But I think it bites on the same kind of um stream. And it also this topic it it speaks to the argument in alchemy of whether man people can can do better than nature like like there's idea that there's kind of this relay race going

1:15:28 · Unknown · on where nature brings things to a certain point of evolution and then it creates consciousn

on where nature brings things to a certain point of evolution and then it creates consciousness in this varying degrees and eventually something like humans um picks up the job, you know, like in a relay race takes the baton and then carries on evolution further. Um there's that that idea, but then there's also the opposing idea that no, nature cannot be superseded that um you know that this is all fakery essentially that you know alchemists um you know they're they're mimicking

1:16:03 · Unknown · nature um but they're not doing as good of a job uh or they can't do as good of a job. And t

nature um but they're not doing as good of a job uh or they can't do as good of a job. And then there's the in between idea that you know nature does things perfectly and that when humankind understands those lessons that humankind can do it equally to nature. Right? So there's kind of like again there's a tree of prima here where there's like some people say it's wrong, some people say it's right, and some people say it's somewhere in the middle. this idea of transmutation

1:16:36 · Unknown · um or even just evolution um in general. Um so there it's it's an interesting topic and one

um or even just evolution um in general. Um so there it's it's an interesting topic and one that again I haven't quite landed on. I often don't really take a hard stance on anything. It's I think it's you know you wait five minutes and your best idea five minutes ago is is is trash. You know when you learn something else and I just keep experiencing that over and over again. So I find it really difficult to to latch on to one thing is true or false. But you know to to come

1:17:07 · Unknown · back to your question those are the basic you know principles of transmutation versus transf

back to your question those are the basic you know principles of transmutation versus transformation. One is the process of change and the other is the process of one thing turning into another. I want to ask you Ike well first if you have any thoughts on that. Second, since he mentioned evolution, I'm curious if maybe you can share your perspective on evolution versus adaptation. Well, the first thing that I that kind of comes to mind when based off of what Daniel said was um I thought long and hard about this um and I've I've allowed my experience to really guide me and

1:17:52 · Unknown · I I've not really come to any hard conclusions either about this this idea of perfection in

I I've not really come to any hard conclusions either about this this idea of perfection in nature. I think that as a gestal, nature wants to express essence, but that essence is is simpler than things that have uh a more sophisticated expression of soul, selfhood, like a human being and nature. Nature expresses therefore its essence through instinct which is something that is more it it it sounds contradictory because you know like a survival instinct sounds very very self-centered but at the same time we have to look at the interconnectivity of nature and we

1:18:51 · Unknown · have to look at as exist and we have to understand that instinct as a phenomenon is almost l

have to look at as exist and we have to understand that instinct as a phenomenon is almost like this web of interconnectivity. You could almost say that an animal's instinct or a plant's instinct, you know, in something like uh um helotropism, the instinct to turn the plant to turn to face the sun. Um I don't know what else to call that other than instinct. There's some sort of uh this programming, some relationship, some consciousness. It seems to be more diffuse and consistently within relationship within holism to the entirety whereas human

1:19:29 · Unknown · beings tend to separate themselves out of that. Our participation is willed. Our part our pa

beings tend to separate themselves out of that. Our participation is willed. Our part our participation is is variable. And so what what I see is that human beings particularly in magic we can create a perfect thing but we can't create a perfect system. Nature nature's working is perfect systemically at a on a larger scale because they're different rules apply right out of nature [ __ ] has to eat other living [ __ ] to survive. You know that's not necessarily good for human beings to have to compete in that way and devour each other. Um so we have this this very

1:20:24 · Unknown · Um simple meaning small amount of variables uh uh phenomenological interplay with things. Ou

Um simple meaning small amount of variables uh uh phenomenological interplay with things. Our consciousness can act upon one thing at a time, two things at a time. Whereas there's this whereas in nature there is this interconnectivity that even when it manifests as something selfish or in terms of a self-preservation instinct or something that in reality what's happening is it's it's a it's part of a larger dance and so I think that we will as human beings you be the greatest alchemist in the world you'll never be able to create something systemically perfect

1:21:06 · Unknown · but you can create something that is phenomenally perfect. You can create a perfect noun, a

but you can create something that is phenomenally perfect. You can create a perfect noun, a thing, but you cannot create a a perfect web in the same way. So, nature is working. Um, I think I've thought about this a lot because there's a justification here for whether or not one should interfere karmically with via magic, via the technology of changing phenomena, you know, in a way that is that employs a different set of rules and therefore invokes a different set of invokes a different species of merit. there's an ethical imperative to this uh when you're doing

1:21:51 · Unknown · things like that. So, that that's something that I've thought about a little bit that I just

things like that. So, that that's something that I've thought about a little bit that I just wanted to kind of offer up uh for for food for thought, right? I don't necessarily know that I have a hard view in there, but I think that um lots of things to think about, particularly for alchemists, particularly for magicians, for people, for human beings in general. Um some of it might be obvious, right? But still worth um still worth thinking about. Now Sky, I I I I lost you on the second

1:22:20 · Unknown · question. Could you repeat that for me again? Evolution versus adaptation. What would be the

question. Could you repeat that for me again? Evolution versus adaptation. What would be the differentiation? I feel like I feel like they're the same thing. What do you think, Daniel? Well, I think you're you're speaking about it and it's a good point that you're making, too. It's like uh like the difference between right and wrong. It gets very very confusing it seems as we evolve. It's like it just it gets they get closer and closer and closer together and it it's difficult

1:22:49 · Unknown · to determine sometimes. Um like you said this is an ethical issue but something you said it

to determine sometimes. Um like you said this is an ethical issue but something you said it kind of it kind of sparked a thought you know and it's this idea that um there's adversity in life which I think is kind of like a first medicine which it it stimulates us to to do something about it right and this adversity we could think about you you talked about you know life eating life and you know one thing's trying to eat and survive and the other thing's trying to defend itself and not die

1:23:23 · Unknown · and it eats its own things. It's like there's this friction going on in adversity and and wh

and it eats its own things. It's like there's this friction going on in adversity and and when we're problem solving that or when nature is problem solving that like it seems like maybe it's that adaptations are happening first. It's like okay, we adapt to a situation um and maybe we relieve ourselves of some sort of issue in the moment. But when those adaptations are repeated over and over and over and over again, I think that's what stimulates what I would consider evolution. And

1:23:57 · Unknown · we see that again in the lab work where you know we can we can incite a certain level of cha

we see that again in the lab work where you know we can we can incite a certain level of change by doing a process once. Um, but like when we talked about with the metallic work, like you know, distilling this alcast off and returning it to the open salts over and over and over again, like you do that seven times or 30 times or something and and you know the end product is almost indistinguishable from if you had only done it once, right? Maybe it's where you know when adapt adaptation becomes habitual and perpetuated that it it starts to actually create tangible

1:24:40 · Unknown · lasting and then later on replicated change. You know it's not like you know this monkey did

lasting and then later on replicated change. You know it's not like you know this monkey did this one thing once and then it was never done again. And it's like no, it was repeated in that individual and then it might be repeated in the species and offspring and then eventually you know such a great change occurs where you know something doesn't even really is almost like a different thing you know and I think it's an interesting thing to consider just in I mean we're talking about evolution here right like the like Darwin's theory essentially here survival of

1:25:14 · Unknown · the fittest and you know adaptations eventually leading to what is claimed to be transmutati

the fittest and you know adaptations eventually leading to what is claimed to be transmutation, right? You know, one animal turning into another. We got, you know, like be like weird mammal creatures like like turning into whales and all, you know, actual changes of like like one species to another. I mean, yeah. I mean, can you believe that the [ __ ] dinosaurs, you know, turned into like chickens? Chickens and birds, you I just think to my every every time I see like a bunch of seagulls like flocking over uh you know a ripped apart McDonald's bag of stale fries

1:25:53 · Unknown · I I swear to God I just shake my head and go how the mighty have fallen. Yeah we're moving w

I I swear to God I just shake my head and go how the mighty have fallen. Yeah we're moving we're moving backwards. Well that's the thing right in this cycle it's like you know things are moving ahead and things are moving backwards. It's like you got to keep that that polarity going, right? Um those those opposing forces again, you know, bring this back to the question um and this idea of of adversity, right? That like Saturn is the adversary, right? Like so that base lead metal that symbol it makes so much sense. It's like at the very bottom of of of anything

1:26:31 · Unknown · that is you know the very first state you know it starts with adversity and and and let me b

that is you know the very first state you know it starts with adversity and and and let me bring let me let me be a little platonic about this or a little Socratic about this. Sky asked, "Okay, what's the difference between adaptation and evolution?" And so what we would what Socrates would likely do would say, well, there's no context because these two things, you need to contextualize this question because as Daniel pointed out, we can talk about this Darwinistic survival of the fittest. And I think that there's a lot there having to do with adversity.

1:27:11 · Unknown · That's how you started off this this you know that that portion of your um uh your thoughts

That's how you started off this this you know that that portion of your um uh your thoughts and now we kind of come full circle to Saturn as the adversary. Now, I kind of know the types of questions that Sky asks me, you know, because we've been doing this for a long time, and he knows me enough to be able to sort of, you know, the way that they they have like um they have like uh I don't know, these these little fences for cows to like bring them to the kill shelter that, you know, like Sky can kind of maneuver me in that way. But I think one of the things for me is is

1:27:49 · Unknown · is what I had alluded to earlier is that nature is operating with a different set of rules.

is what I had alluded to earlier is that nature is operating with a different set of rules. So in other words, somebody like me as opposed to a hard, you know, Daniel, I've studied with you and we're going to continue to study together and I've learned alchemy from you. I've learned alchemy from Phoenix. I've learned alchemy from Sky. So I'm not discounting myself as an alchemist, but I'm I'm not going to place myself with you guys. You know, that's [ __ ] absurd. But so I'm

1:28:17 · Unknown · I'm not necessarily that level of an alchemist, but I am a magician and I am an initiator an

I'm not necessarily that level of an alchemist, but I am a magician and I am an initiator and I and I'm I've gone through these initiatic processes. So my one insight would be this, right? What is the context you're asking about in terms of, you know, adaptation and evolution? Because evolution has a very different set of rules when we're talking about something like spiritual evolution or the evolution of the soul. Uh because of what happens when um you begin to move in that

1:28:58 · Unknown · direction rather than material evolution. where material evolution has to do with survival,

direction rather than material evolution. where material evolution has to do with survival, whereas spiritual evolution has to do with yielding. It's much more of a of there's there's more of a yield there than an assertion than a you know there's there's a a different kind of strength. And one thing that I want to point out about Saturn that a lot of people get wrong or not get wrong but see one way we tend to associate Saturn with death, right? He's the adversary. He's

1:29:31 · Unknown · entropy. You know, he is boundary restriction. He comes with the scythe, you know, to harves

entropy. You know, he is boundary restriction. He comes with the scythe, you know, to harvest the soul. But what I said earlier about the soul having to die to the spiritual to be incarnated to the material. Well, some people look at Saturn at their death, as him coming, reaching with his hand and grabbing and taking you. But the people that I think have experienced spiritual initiation realize that it's Saturn finally retracting his hand and allow allowing the soul to be reborn and leave this law this this realm of material laws that actually are antithetical to the nature of

1:30:17 · Unknown · the soul. This is this is the Platonic position. This is the hermetic position. uh the Gnost

the soul. This is this is the Platonic position. This is the hermetic position. uh the Gnostic position and I would say it's the current uh initiatic western esoteric tradition where it's there's a different set of rules there's a different vantage point a different perspective when we talk about material of the evolution of a substance and a thing or the evolution of nature uh and the evolution of a of of the human soul. So I I don't know what you were talking about, but I think I I said enough there to clarify for anybody that was well would it I mean if I if I

1:30:59 · Unknown · was to say in relation to the soul or you know just if applied to consciousness in general i

was to say in relation to the soul or you know just if applied to consciousness in general if you were to apply adaptation to consciousness or or evolution to consciousness would that be a sufficient context? That's I don't know. I mean, I it's hard it's hard for me to extract my, you know, I I tend to think that if you're if you're adapting to something, for instance, when I was playing college lacrosse, we had to run until we [ __ ] puked at 5:00 in the morning. We had this this this this athletic trainer named Mark. He was from the Air Force Academy.

1:31:46 · Unknown · This guy beat the living [ __ ] out of us. Not I mean, he didn't actually lay hands on us, b

This guy beat the living [ __ ] out of us. Not I mean, he didn't actually lay hands on us, but he just made us go. And he would tell us, "A warrior doesn't give up. A warrior adapts and moves forward." And it helped. I I found ways to when I had a cramp, I would literally like make my hand like a claw and dig it out as I ran, you know, and like finding these ways to adapt. But on the other hand, you know, there's this you you're coping with something like Dan said,

1:32:18 · Unknown · there's there's there is an adverse feeling and an adverse uh kind of effect. I think maybe

there's there's there is an adverse feeling and an adverse uh kind of effect. I think maybe the product of that if we're talking that that you know aspect of consciousness becomes evolution. My consciousness evolved. it it had a higher threshold for pain and it had a greater um hold it had more discipline you know and I evolved in that manner from making those adaptations but I think you know we could take we could take it a lot of different ways you know as we take any any part of this conversation we could kind of like could be an

1:32:55 · Unknown · episode in and of itself I was thinking almost uh evolution's perhaps the integration of ada

episode in and of itself I was thinking almost uh evolution's perhaps the integration of adaptation I think that's a good way like I think it goes back to your other question. It's almost synonymous with uh transformation and transmutation, right? Transformation is like adaptation and transmutation is evolution, you know, and like you just said, Sky, it's like, you know, when or I made the example too. It's like you know if something is done once okay maybe that's a tempor a temporal uh adaptation to a situation but if that is repeated over and

1:33:35 · Unknown · over and over again in an individual then that's passed on to you know offspring uh you know

over and over again in an individual then that's passed on to you know offspring uh you know of a you know plant or animal or whatever you know eventually there something new is born of those changes that are being it's almost like a habitual or hereditary integration type thing. Mhm. I I think it's kind of it's somewhat difficult. It's almost like saying where where does hot end and cold begin? You know, it it's a spectrum. I think you know like the like the process of change and

1:34:11 · Unknown · like where do you go from where's the point of the old thing and the new thing? And again, I

like where do you go from where's the point of the old thing and the new thing? And again, I think it's very easy and maybe it's why it's used as an example to say, "Oh, this was lead before and now it is gold." That's a very very hardlined example which I think makes a really strong point. Um whether it be true or not almost doesn't even matter in the you know the philosophical value is there. It's a stark example of like this is that and this is this like this thing used to be black

1:34:43 · Unknown · and now it's white. You know like this thing used to be lead and now it's gold. Like it's li

and now it's white. You know like this thing used to be lead and now it's gold. Like it's like you know going from one polarity to to the other. uh but there's that journey in between right which is necessary to get from point A to to Z and that's that's the whole trans transformative aspect or or um you know adaptation um aspect of it. So yeah I think these are those are kind of synonymous terms adapt transform evolve or transmute. All right I want to get to uh cloudwater extraction.

1:35:21 · Unknown · What's going on with cloud water extraction right now? Oh, fancy cloud water. Cloud water. Y

What's going on with cloud water extraction right now? Oh, fancy cloud water. Cloud water. Yeah, it's I I love this concept. Um, this is a concept that comes from uh Hollandis and I mean other people write about it in different terms and things, but it's the idea that you essentially you gently extract the endogenous water from a plant. So you're, you know, you've got a plant, it's got this natural water content to it. Even a dried plant will have water content to it. Fresh plants, of course, more. Uh, and so you are gently distilling this out. You know,

1:36:07 · Unknown · not never hot enough that you'll actually burn the material that you're working on, but you'

not never hot enough that you'll actually burn the material that you're working on, but you're gently sweating out this moisture. uh and this moisture this this water is then used as a menstrm to then go back and extract that same plant further. Um so you know you're distilling out this again it's this process of distillation and cohovation. You distill something out and then you take that distillate and you put it back on the physical substance that remains behind in the distillation.

1:36:42 · Unknown · Um I think it's, you know, when I think about why why would it be called cloud water for me

Um I think it's, you know, when I think about why why would it be called cloud water for me the most stark um reasoning for it is that sometimes it looks cloudy. You know what you what you Yeah. It looks it looks milky. I mean that's it's like you're you're calling it as as you see it, which is often the case in in um alchemical descriptions, you know. um they can be very contextual just you know but calling it as they see it right so the cloud water really I think in a if we were to give it some like a modern definition it's really like a hydrosol you know

1:37:22 · Unknown · like when you if you distill an essential oil the the water that distills over is the hydros

like when you if you distill an essential oil the the water that distills over is the hydrosol um and that that water um can be full of um the essential oil of the plant and these oils oils um can make it look cloudy. Um depending on how you work, you may not draw off all the essential oil and maybe you're only getting a little bit of it. And because um this water in the plant also will contain some, you know, volatile compounds like again indogenous alcohols and ketones and things. um it's able to bring with it um and and bring into into dissolution um nonwater soluble oils,

1:38:11 · Unknown · right? Like when you often see this when you distill an essential oil in a hydrosol, the hyd

right? Like when you often see this when you distill an essential oil in a hydrosol, the hydrosol when it first comes over can look super cloudy and eventually it clarifies and and you know that cloudiness really what it is is like oil droplets, tiny tiny tiny little oil droplets that are making the the solution look milky or cloudy. And if you let it settle um it'll separate. The oil will, you know, generally float to the top um and the hydrosol will clarify. But that's what this cloud water is. It's essentially like a hydrool of a plant

1:38:45 · Unknown · uh which forms a unique uh and potent solvent which you can then use to extract the plant. Y

uh which forms a unique uh and potent solvent which you can then use to extract the plant. You know it's like this beautiful idea that everything is whole in itself and that you know everything has within itself the tools required to to evolve. back to that evolution term, you know, that you don't need uh anything outside of something, you know, one thing, a plant, yourself, um you know, an animal like that. Everything needed for that thing to, you know, unfurl and reach its highest

1:39:25 · Unknown · uh potential. Um all those tools are tucked in your tool belt already. You don't need to loo

uh potential. Um all those tools are tucked in your tool belt already. You don't need to look outside yourself. And I love that concept and that that's what I think I maybe I love the most about um this way of working that that Holland just describes is it is very much playing on that concept where right off the cuff like you don't have to reach to alcohol or vinegar or anything else. It's like you take that plant, you know, pull out its moisture and then use that very same moisture to go back and further extract that plant. All right. So, contrary to popular belief,

1:40:04 · Unknown · an elixir originally referred to a solid, not a liquid. I was wondering, can you please elab

an elixir originally referred to a solid, not a liquid. I was wondering, can you please elaborate on that? And if any if you have any references to where this is historically talked about or anything like that. Yeah, this is uh oh, it's an interesting point because yeah, most people today think of an elixir as like some sort of sweetened medicine. um generally a liquid um but um originally yes it referred to a powder essentially. So we could go back to Arabic alexir um sometimes that is loosely translated to um from the ashes in in an alchemical state alchemical

1:40:53 · Unknown · perspective. Um it also speaks to the Greek word zerion. These are all these words are all t

perspective. Um it also speaks to the Greek word zerion. These are all these words are all talking about powders, you know, of varying varying forms, you know, sometimes it's speaking to uh like the black uh makeup that was used in in Egypt like like eyeliner, but uh depending on the context and al alchemy is always highly contextual um the elixir is often and well at least originally referring to a solid substance which is produced a medicine which is produced as a solid um and often a powder. So that's you know that that's the that's the origin of it. um it's changed

1:41:41 · Unknown · significantly over time and I think there's a lot of argument about it because again these t

significantly over time and I think there's a lot of argument about it because again these terms are they're just there's no standardized terminology for this although there's like there are some basic rules um which most people adhere to um alchemically speaking um terminology is is so highly contextual so an elixir for one person is something completely different for another person. Um, both could be right at the same time and describing entirely different things, but factually speaking, um, an elixir originally was referring to a powder and not a liquid.

1:42:27 · Unknown · Do you do you think that the vernacular will or or could be improved by being systematized?

Do you do you think that the vernacular will or or could be improved by being systematized? Do you think that would do ultimately do more damage or or just not really um contribute beneficially to the modern alchemical culture? Because there is definitely um I think personally this will be remembered as a period of of um a very a distinct period of alchemical work. Right. right now, what we're kind of in in the thick of right now with people like you and and and other alchemists. You think that that's something that that that should be pursued? You think it's kind of maybe

1:43:12 · Unknown · a waste of time or what are your thoughts? Kind of a little bit of both really. I I think wh

a waste of time or what are your thoughts? Kind of a little bit of both really. I I think what like what you're speaking to is like this time right now because it's so easy for people to communicate in a way that was never possible before. I think a natural result of that is that there will be more standardization of terminology. People will tend to get on the same page. There's always going to be disagreements, but it's easier for people to to to kind of jump on a bandwagon and say, "No,

1:43:42 · Unknown · this is this and that is that because it's easier for us to communicate." And I think in cer

this is this and that is that because it's easier for us to communicate." And I think in certain contexts, um, it's got utility, right? like if I'm in in let's say clinical practice, the terminology describing this medicine or that medicine is very very important. You know, it's like we could say um I can compare this to like common names of plants compared to Latin like scientific naming of plants, right? You can have like 20 different plants that share the exact same common name,

1:44:15 · Unknown · but they're different things, right? So in a clinical setting, we don't want that type of li

but they're different things, right? So in a clinical setting, we don't want that type of like margin of error where it's like you told me to take this and I took that but it was not that, right? So we want we want exactitude in this case. So there's there's certain situations like clinical practice where that's that's got a lot of utility to it. Um, at the same time it it kind of comes back to this whole like fate and free will thing where there's there's this individual

1:44:47 · Unknown · process that everybody is going through to to to you know evolve themselves. Um, and so that

process that everybody is going through to to to you know evolve themselves. Um, and so that subjective experience I think requires um that looseness. You know I think I I think there's value in both. There's there's value in both. there's there's value in using many many different terms to describe the exact same thing um or one term to describe the same thing. It it depends on the the context. Um yeah, I've thought about this quite a bit. I think probably because I I come to

1:45:25 · Unknown · this, you know, as a clinical practitioner. So often times it's it's like, you know, for my

this, you know, as a clinical practitioner. So often times it's it's like, you know, for my own self, I I need a set of terminology to use because I need to be able to communicate to people that come to see me um and take my advice um to help themselves. um I need a fairly standardized terminology to make sense of it. They need to know what I mean when I say take this and that. Um but outside of that context, um I don't know. I guess I question like how valuable that really is. You know, this is a concept that comes up in a book I've got called uh Hermetica Arcanum,

1:46:11 · Unknown · which is by Jean Despier, I believe his name was. And he talks about this just like this kin

which is by Jean Despier, I believe his name was. And he talks about this just like this kind of, you know, there's so many different ways to describe process of alchemy. And you know, you can have completely conflicting views yet those two different viewpoints ending up at the same end goal. So like who cares what you called it, right? It worked. Like if it if it works, it works. It doesn't matter how you how you call it. So there's I think there's arguments to be made both ways.

1:46:46 · Unknown · And I'm not o overly concerned about standardizing um or making an effort to standardize out

And I'm not o overly concerned about standardizing um or making an effort to standardize outside of my own personal clinical practice. Um but then at the same time I think that it quiets the noise, right? It definitely makes it easier to understand if there's an agreed upon set of rules, which essentially there is. Um but you know, how much we dial that in is is the question, right? Um, so I'm I'm I'm unconcerned really about it, but it's interesting to look at it both ways.

1:47:23 · Unknown · Do you tell your patients to mingle the blood of the lion with the gluten of the eagle or de

Do you tell your patients to mingle the blood of the lion with the gluten of the eagle or depends on the the patient? Yeah, I I I understand exactly what you're talking about, too. you know where it's like look if it works and we end up at at um the same or a similar sort of outcome product conclusion then you know I think I think that in in something like that like for instance and I just again I don't consider myself an alchemical expert I consider myself somebody who's an expert in in magic and and theology and that sort of stuff so I I don't I wouldn't seek

1:48:10 · Unknown · to systematize other people's vernacular, but what I would try and do was create would be to

to systematize other people's vernacular, but what I would try and do was create would be to create more communication and dialogue between get get people talking with one another so at least we understand each other. You know what I'm saying? So I need to know your like think of math, right? Right. We order of operations is a big one, right? because you get this big [ __ ] mess of an equation with all these parenthetical sort of things and so how do you figure it out? Well, in the States is PEMDAS, right? But in the in in in the UK it's something like I think Bodmas or

1:48:52 · Unknown · something like that. They have a totally different but if you use the the order of operation

something like that. They have a totally different but if you use the the order of operations regardless of the words regardless they come they they actually work out to be the same answer. Mhm. you know, but the important thing is to be able to to transpose and discuss with one another. Okay, what what does your term mean? I think that that would be important for me as as a as a practicing ceremonialist. And if I were if I ever did work in the mil in a clinical millu like you do, my my clinical millu was in physical therapy, which is extremely standardized. Um,

1:49:33 · Unknown · right. because it's there's there's uh oversight, you know, and then and things like uh uh u

right. because it's there's there's uh oversight, you know, and then and things like uh uh uh Chinese medicine and things like that. I would I would want to have some understanding of what the other, you know, terminology kind of meant so that I could um just be able to have a level of fluency in the community and and and we'd be able to sort of help each other, right? Because that's what we're supposed to do. We're supposed to kind of bounce ideas off of each other and and exchange ideas with each other. And I think um a unified vernacular can can help. But

1:50:14 · Unknown · I do agree with you. I really do agree with you. I don't think that everything has to be red

I do agree with you. I really do agree with you. I don't think that everything has to be reduced to one system of standardization because it's then after that it becomes monolithic. It be it's really hard to innovate and discover new things too rigid. It Yeah. It it you know it trying to it's again alchemy is is everything right. So it's like okay this is the set of rules and and and words you know from this limited human experience I think we are we are of course going to make

1:50:49 · Unknown · errors if we try to do that but you know in thinking about this like I'm going back to your

errors if we try to do that but you know in thinking about this like I'm going back to your comment about the time right now and thinking about that and it's like you know these different practitioners before it wasn't just that they were disconnected and so they didn't have the same terms that's part of it and you know different streams of alchemy but there's also an intention to confuse by using many different words to describe one thing. Um, you know, or one, you know, one word to describe many things. Um, there's intention to to obuscate. Um, and to me

1:51:28 · Unknown · it feels like we're in a time of of and maybe this is just me, but a time of apocalypse, lik

it feels like we're in a time of of and maybe this is just me, but a time of apocalypse, like a time of of revealing, right? where where where things are clarified. And so I think naturally again it's just happening because we have this connectivity through ease of communication and travel being being able to connect with one another on this stuff. So out of that is naturally born something a little bit more um standardized. Um, and a second thought I had too is that for me what's most important is that I because I because I interact with the public with my work, you know,

1:52:09 · Unknown · I want to share this work with other people. What's important to me is that they understand

I want to share this work with other people. What's important to me is that they understand what I'm saying. Even if what I'm saying is not what somebody else is saying, I I need to say what I'm saying and use the terms that I'm using in a way um that people can understand and relate to it. Um I don't want it to be a mystery um you know to to people like if they're coming to me to try something or they're coming to me um you know as a a a clinical patient you know I I I want them

1:52:39 · Unknown · to understand what I'm trying to say and what I'm trying to do with these medicines. So um y

to understand what I'm trying to say and what I'm trying to do with these medicines. So um yeah it it becomes more of a sure there's like a greater you know um public uh aspect of that but it's also kind of on a onetoone scale where it's just like I want to make sure that everybody that interacts with me understands um what I'm saying you know which is not always easy because I'm an I'm an alchemy nerd and it's really easy for me to go really far out on a limb and just deep deep dive

1:53:14 · Unknown · you know, I'm I'm in this all the time. Like, I'm constantly thinking about this and doing t

you know, I'm I'm in this all the time. Like, I'm constantly thinking about this and doing this and going deep. And so, it's very easy to stimulate me to just go deep into a a rabbit hole. Um, whatever rabbit hole I may be going down at that time. But yeah, that with terminology, and that's what I've tried to do with, you know, a couple articles on the different terms that I give my different medicines. I don't think everybody has to use them. I don't encourage people to use them if they

1:53:40 · Unknown · don't feel like it makes sense to them. It's it's the terms that I use that make sense to me

don't feel like it makes sense to them. It's it's the terms that I use that make sense to me. And yes, it does build upon other authors and teachers I've had. Um there is some sort of there there's there's it's it's it's a sensical system that I've put together, but it doesn't have like everybody doesn't have to use it. And and I'm using it to clarify things. Again, back to this point of like revealing um what was usually hidden. I think you know we're we're changing as humans and um

1:54:16 · Unknown · you know in a temporal sense we don't always need the same rules. you know, as much as you k

you know in a temporal sense we don't always need the same rules. you know, as much as you know, I think alchemy still can be vilified or um you know, there's a risk there's certain inherent risks to it and I think it's you know, anything that's a powerful truth, you have to handle it um with care. Uh but at least in my experience with it, I feel like it's really important to reveal uh alchemy for what it is as best as I understand it. I that feels instinctual to me, but

1:54:50 · Unknown · we were talking about instinct earlier. It feels like an instinct. Uh and at least at this p

we were talking about instinct earlier. It feels like an instinct. Uh and at least at this point, I could regret it at later. You know, that happens in life, but I don't feel like I'm doing anything wrong to um openly speak about some of these things which, you know, in a different time would not be openly spoken about. Beautifully said. I've got a couple more a couple more questions. Um, I wanted to ask you, you had a post and it was like uh some kind of vial. I don't know if it was

1:55:27 · Unknown · like gold oil or something in it. It said ether and fixed fire element and then it said wate

like gold oil or something in it. It said ether and fixed fire element and then it said watery drags left from rectification. I was just curious what what does dregs refer to? Oh, it's Well, it depends on the context of course, but like you know, dregs could be like the bottom of the barrel of like, you know, a beer keg or wine. Like it's like not the good stuff basically. Oh, okay. Not the good stuff to if I could simplify that answer. Yeah, that sounds good. And then, um, I wanted to ask you about stone feeding. Um, that's probably one of my last questions is yeah,

1:56:10 · Unknown · stone feeding. What's what's what's it all about? Well, what the hell is that? Explain that,

stone feeding. What's what's what's it all about? Well, what the hell is that? Explain that, Dan. We've touched on it already, right? We we we talked about it with um it's the same process really that we talked about with with the metallic work. This this whole like opening a metal and then you have this open body and you know, you feed it the spirit. you distill it off and give it back. You know, that's one way of of feeding um a stone of many different kinds. You know, there's

1:56:42 · Unknown · there's there's stones and then there's the stone. You know, there's there's the the end of

there's there's stones and then there's the stone. You know, there's there's the the end of the the work, the the philosopher stone, the great work, but then there's all these other different variations of that work. And they they really they mirror each other, of course. Um really it's just this process of you've got a body uh and it's dead in its first state. You know, you've separated and purified you you've killed something usually in this work basically. You've pulled something

1:57:13 · Unknown · apart. You've separated that animating soul and that spark of life. Sarified it. Yeah. You'v

apart. You've separated that animating soul and that spark of life. Sarified it. Yeah. You've Yeah. Exactly. You've you've taken it apart, you know, you've you've chopped it up. Yeah. And um now you got to put it back together again. You know, you've taken the parts, you know, you've separated them, you've refined them, and now you want to put it back together to create like a a new incarnation that's um um evolved from its original state. And there's a couple different

1:57:43 · Unknown · ways of going about it. And I mean I mean there's a gazillion ways really, but I'll mention

ways of going about it. And I mean I mean there's a gazillion ways really, but I'll mention two um obvious ways. One is, you know, often people refer to it as like feeding a baby where you've got these you've got a salt of some sort and you very carefully feed um the sulfur or the mercury, these these two liquids usually um drop by drop. Sometimes one at a time like sometimes it's depends on the work. It could be sulfur first and then mercury or some people mix the sulfur and

1:58:20 · Unknown · mercury together. But either way, um the main concept is that you've got this this uh empty

mercury together. But either way, um the main concept is that you've got this this uh empty vessel, this body ready to receive this source of life and you are drop by drop feeding it. Um just giving it just enough to satiate it. Um, and you know, that's the philosophy of it. And the reality of it is, you know, you're you're adding these drops of, let's say, an oil or spirit, um, until the salt can no longer take anymore. You don't want to drown the baby, you know. So, you

1:58:52 · Unknown · want to give it just enough that it's wellfed. Um, and then let it digest, you know, just li

want to give it just enough that it's wellfed. Um, and then let it digest, you know, just like eating a meal, you want to eat just enough. You don't want to eat too much. That causes problems. Or drink too much, it causes problems. Um so that's one way of feeding the stone, this very slow drop by drop method. Um, and the other is what we kind of talked about earlier where um you can uh you can do this process of of cohabilation where you've got let's say a larger amount of

1:59:28 · Unknown · this liquid that's being fed to the salts uh and you're gently distilling it off. So you're

this liquid that's being fed to the salts uh and you're gently distilling it off. So you're you're you're satiating this this uh receptacle, the body, the salt, in a different way. You know, you're you're reducing the liquid by distilling it off and then the salt eats up as much of as much as it can. And then you repeat the process over and over and over again where you're just you're distilling it off the the liquid off the salts and then you're taking that distillate and you're

1:59:57 · Unknown · putting it back and with each pass um that salt is is fixing more of these volatile constitu

putting it back and with each pass um that salt is is fixing more of these volatile constituents and evolving, you know, so where eventually um basically the whole meal is eaten, you know, where there's no longer, you know, all of that that life force um both universal and individual that you're feeding those salts becomes completely and perfectly amalgamated with the salts. You get you reach that point of perfection where um these opposites fixed and volatile meet in the middle uh and and are said to be then immortal or inseparable um which would be that's you know

2:00:41 · Unknown · the the great work to create the philosopher stone the the end journey is to get to that poi

the the great work to create the philosopher stone the the end journey is to get to that point of of completion. So th those are two different ways that I could think of that are commonly described of um you know this process of of feeding a stone. Okay. And so in that same post I was referencing it says the fixed oil being extracted from the dregs of the first rectification of the volatile oil and spirit. So the first rectification, so my curiosity was how many rect how many times do you rectify? As many as you need. It depends. Is it like intuitive or like is there a general I mean

2:01:23 · Unknown · there can be some intuition to it, but it's like until you get the gut the job done well, ri

there can be some intuition to it, but it's like until you get the gut the job done well, right? If you're not working very well, um it could take many many many many times. Uh, but if you're really accurate and you know, you know, you're you've dialed your skill in, uh, it doesn't take as much work. It's kind of goes back to what I was saying about the simplicity of things. It's like as you advance the, you know, the answers to your questions, um, and the the medicines for these these, uh, you know, stumbling blocks that you run into.

2:01:59 · Unknown · it's like they just become easier and so much more simple as you advance. Um, so it depends.

it's like they just become easier and so much more simple as you advance. Um, so it depends. It just really depends how you're working and what you're working on. Um, but you know what I'm referring to there, you know, again, we're talking about this this difference between like fixed sulfur and volatile sulfur. It's like when you distill, the most volatile readily passes over in that distillation, whereas the fixed stays behind, you know. So, in that post, sounds like I'm describing

2:02:29 · Unknown · um separating that um fixed oil probably from I'm assuming water. It could I'm not sure exac

um separating that um fixed oil probably from I'm assuming water. It could I'm not sure exactly what post it is, but it's probably fixed sulfur in some sort of water or less volatile liquid that's left behind. And I'm you can then separate that and and and do further purification of that fixed sulfur. Thank you. Ike, do you have any last questions, any responses, anything else before we wrap it up? So, what I'm hearing from this conversation is essentially that we are going to start our own

2:03:06 · Unknown · Hogwarts and Dan is be potions master. I'll do defense against the dark arts. Sky, what do y

Hogwarts and Dan is be potions master. I'll do defense against the dark arts. Sky, what do you want to what you want? Uh, I'll just I'll just model in the background. I'll Okay, I'll dance. No, this is great, man. I love talking to you. I love talking to the both of you. This is a great energy. Um, we should do this again. Yeah, absolutely. This was a fun conversation. It was a a bit of a marathon. We could I know I could talk to you guys forever, each each of you individually, and even worse when we're all together. It just, again, we're talking

2:03:44 · Unknown · about alchemy, so it's like nothing is really out of bounds. It's really hard to like put so

about alchemy, so it's like nothing is really out of bounds. It's really hard to like put some, you know, some bumpers around it, you know, to to say, "No, this is this is the topic." Because it really does stretch into anything and everything for curious people like ourselves. Uh that makes for infinite conversation. Yeah. Yeah. It's cool. It was cool being able to hear um a lot of the laboratory, you know, chemical nature of things and then to get Ike, you to kind of depict a lot

2:04:21 · Unknown · of the, you know, western esoteric spiritual teachings of things and how that all relates an

of the, you know, western esoteric spiritual teachings of things and how that all relates and how they kind of coincide so beautifully. So, it's a very it's a very wide it's a very broad conversation, but I think ultimately a very satisfying one because there's stuff in here that, you know, hardcore maybe seasoned alchemists or alchemy nerds as as Dan put it, uh, are going to really have a bunch to chew on. And then on the other hand, you know, I've always found alchemy nerds to be great because they also want to hear about

2:04:58 · Unknown · the philosophical and and spiritual stuff as well because they understand how that ties into

the philosophical and and spiritual stuff as well because they understand how that ties into their work. But that's also there for other people that are listening to the podcast that don't, you know, are kind of new to the the vernacular of alchemy, which can sound crazy. Feeding a stone, that sounds crazy. It is crazy. re realistically if if if you're not doing both, you're not doing it right. That's to me like there there's got to be, you know, and that's something maybe sometimes

2:05:30 · Unknown · like there's a criticism of my approach because I often describe chemistry. Um really my int

like there's a criticism of my approach because I often describe chemistry. Um really my interest in chemistry is is from a you know a spiritual inclination, right? It's just better understanding these bu building blocks that we're working with in order to understand meaning in life which is you know quite quite a task to take on right so for me uh and that's why I love alchemy in its holism it's like you need to have both sides of the coin you know there's the physical side of

2:06:04 · Unknown · it and there's a non-physical side of it there's the external side of it like in the lab wor

it and there's a non-physical side of it there's the external side of it like in the lab work and there's the internal side what's happening inside yourself uh and when something's missing like it's off, you know, you're you're never going to reach completion with a missing variable like this, right? So, you you really need to have both both sides of this. And yeah, it's great to have um other people to bounce this stuff off of so you can, you know, it's so universal. You can find so

2:06:32 · Unknown · many different examples of saying the exact same thing. And that is very very helpful for fo

many different examples of saying the exact same thing. And that is very very helpful for for I think a wide audience, you know, to be able to latch on to be like, "Oh, I understand that." you know, because maybe Ike's, you know, explanation of um, you know, the platonic um, viewpoint on what I was describing that could allow somebody who has zero chemistry um, background to go back, listen to what I said maybe, and say, "Oh, no, I get that now." Cuz for me, that's how I started understanding chemistry. It's like, I wasn't good at chem. Like, I'm a high

2:07:09 · Unknown · school dropout. I didn't have a background in this. And it was, you know, spiritual teaching

school dropout. I didn't have a background in this. And it was, you know, spiritual teachings, philosophical teachings which made it easier for me to understand and have a reason to understand chemistry, right? So it's these things feed back and forth in into one another. Beautiful. Um, well, Daniel, where can people find you if they want to check out uh, you know, maybe they want to read your blogs or check out more of your work or uh, what you have out there for people? Where where would you direct them? Um, yeah. So,

2:07:49 · Unknown · there's my social media. So, I've got kind of my personal journey with alchemy and herbalism

there's my social media. So, I've got kind of my personal journey with alchemy and herbalism. Um, that's alamia. Ararcadia. And then my business page, my spaderic apothecary is secretfire apothecary and my website is secret-fire.com. And there you can find blog articles and um a pretty good selection of my speric apothecary that I'm offering publicly. Excellent. Ike, do you have any uh thing going on right now that you want to throw out there? Um uh well I've got a shitload of stuff going on but we'll save that for another

2:08:37 · Unknown · day. I I love Dan. I we just worked on something recently where uh we worked together on thi

day. I I love Dan. I we just worked on something recently where uh we worked together on this basics of uh speric alchemy that's going to be coming out in the new year because I actually have to take like four months and you know base this stuff on lunar cycles and things like that which is that's my [ __ ] bag. That's right up my alley. But it's going to take some it's going to take some time to actually produce and get out there. But I'm really happy about that collaboration. So,

2:09:08 · Unknown · uh, be on the lookout for that. My collaboration with with Dan Wisman. What about you, Sky?

uh, be on the lookout for that. My collaboration with with Dan Wisman. What about you, Sky? What's going on, man? Got anything you want to tell people? You just did an awesome uh you just did an awesome interview with with with Eric Purdue. Eric Purdue. Yes. That was a fun one. I'm I'm pretty stoked about it. So, yeah, that's coming out. I'm going to probably release that Friday. So, hopefully I'll release this before Friday so that people can hear this and then listen to that one.

2:09:35 · Unknown · So, we'll see. Well, that's on you. But, uh, he did, um, that new edition of the three books

So, we'll see. Well, that's on you. But, uh, he did, um, that new edition of the three books of a cult philosophy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think the one of the more popular ones that's out there is by a guy Donald Tyson, who's from Halifax, Nova Scotia. Oh, is he? Yeah. Yeah. He's from Halifax. Yeah. Yeah. He did that way back, man. He was one of the first guys to put it out there with I think he might have done it with Lou Allen or Wiser. Yeah. Yeah. Eric's cool. He's got a

2:10:08 · Unknown · really good personality. So that that episode is a is a pretty fun one. So I'm excited for p

really good personality. So that that episode is a is a pretty fun one. So I'm excited for people to listen to it. All right. So I got I got I got a question for Dan off camera real quick. So we Let's Yeah. Thanks everybody who has uh listened to the podcast. We appreciate you greatly. Um, if you guys want to learn listen more of myself, you could check out philosophical minds podcast uh over there podcast at YouTube. Daniel, check them out at secretfire apothecary.com and uh Instagram

2:10:44 · Unknown · handle. What was your Instagram handle again? Uh, alchemia.cadia and secretfire apothecary.

handle. What was your Instagram handle again? Uh, alchemia.cadia and secretfire apothecary. Boom. Beautiful. We appreciate you all greatly and thank you. Until next time. Thanks guys.