0:00 · Unknown · Golden Dawn grades and the Tree of Life

with the the sephirot on the tree of life, right? So technically like thing that a lot of people don't realize is that the golden dawn even though it's a succession of grades is divided into degrees. the outer order comprising the Neophite, Zelada, Theoricus, Practicus, and Philosophus. Four of those are on the tree of life. You technically when you become a neopight, you're not you have not stepped foot onto the tree of life. You're not in an elemental grade as we call them in the outer

0:46 · Unknown · Golden Dawn grades and the Tree of Life

order. And when you do that, you step onto the tree of life. When you take your zelada, your one equals 10, right? You're taking your first step on the 10th Sephiro, right? So it's your first grade, but it's the 10th Sephiro. And then you go on your second step, go up to Yod, the ninth sephiro. 2 equals 9. Your third step three equals 8 in hod the eighth sephiro. Your fourth step will equal >> right. So you see where I'm going with this. Four equals 7. >> Um >> so so that's how that that tracks

1:35 · Unknown · Golden Dawn grades and the Tree of Life

basically. But just as an extra piece, those first four four elemental grades plus the probationary grade of Neopight comprise the first degree of the Golden Dawn system. And then from there you have a portal portal degree which is again a probationary degree where you're in between uh Sephiro. You're not on you're not technically on the tree anywhere. You're you're you're basically placed between certain paths on the tree, but you're not in a sephiro in a sephiro. That portal degree, that portal grade is

2:15 · Unknown · Golden Dawn grades and the Tree of Life

the second degree. And then when you enter into the inner order in Tiferat, right? Five, your fifth step is the, you know, uh or yeah, the fifth step is the sixth sephiro. five equals six, >> then you're in uh you're in the third degree of of the Golden Dawn and and then the rest of that is, you know, I want to say there are no higher degrees, right? Kind of like masonry, the third degree is the highest degree, but could also be above my pay grade. >> All righty. Um, Ininoian tables. I They

3:00 · Unknown · Introduction to Enochian tables

look cool. I'm assuming maybe this has something to do with John D. Um maybe his Inkian language that was channeled. Um but I have no idea what they're used for, what they're about, anything like that. So just curiosity of mine. Maybe you can lend a little bit of insight into that. >> Yeah. Um the Golden Dawn system is Eninoian. That's that's it. People don't realize that, but the capstone of the golden the I would say the vivifying power and the ultimate magic being performed the the the physical

3:48 · Unknown · Introduction to Enochian tables

vehicle that the Golden Dawn is is to deliver Nokian. Nokian is it's it's the capstone of the Golden Dawn system. And and that's why when you're in the elemental grades, there has to be you're not you haven't opened a Golden Dawn temple in any of the elements if there isn't an In Nokian the the appropriate Inokeian tablet. So, let's go back. The In Noian tables were they're also called the um the the watchtowers or banners of the east, west, north, and south.

4:28 · Unknown · John Dee, Edward Kelley, and angelic scrying

They were delivered to John D in his scrying sessions with Edward Kelly, the medium, you know, also the alchemist, also the hustster, but uh apparently a very gifted medium. enough so to convince after repeated experiments testing testing the veracity of these visions he convinced Queen Elizabeth's court astrologer John D that he that he was the man for this experiment. So essentially what gets delivered to them in a series of scrying uh this is going to take way too long for me to branch off and if you don't

5:06 · Unknown · John Dee, Edward Kelley, and angelic scrying

know what scrying is just look it up. We'll definitely go into it in depth in another episode but the series of scrying operations where D recorded and sort of made sense of what Edward Kelly was receiving. So Edward Kelly was the medium. You see this a lot. Uh take for instance Edward um or Frederick Hawkley the uh 18th century and I believe early 19th century uh scrier. He's known for being like one of the earliest scriers of the modern period. He didn't scry. He never scried because he couldn't. You

5:45 · Unknown · John Dee, Edward Kelley, and angelic scrying

need somebody sensitive in order to receive these things. Um, and so he used typically young girls who were his like house servants. Again, we're talking about cups, receptivity, femininity, intuition, visionary, astral experiences. The more one gets in touch with the feminine side of themselves, and there's a grade for that in the Golden Dawn. Um, and I've done it. I've, you know, it's some of the my favorite work because I'm very much in touch with my feminine side. You

6:17 · Unknown · John Dee, Edward Kelley, and angelic scrying

know, look at the beautiful living quarters that I make for myself. Yes, >> I make soap. I make music. I'm extremely creative. I'm I am, you know, not to pat myself on the back, I am >> for a man, I'm gifted in in intuition and and and divination and and uh astral stuff because of honing in on that feminine element. But I have it balanced, you know? It's not one over the other really. It's just each one, right? The masculine side projects itself. The outward face is the pharaoh.

6:48 · Unknown · John Dee, Edward Kelley, and angelic scrying

The underlying, you know, behind the scenes, why I'm doing all this stuff, why I'm out here. That's that's the feminine counterpart, that silent inner knowing that well, you have to, you know, um, and when this gets exhausted from constantly having to be out here and taking shots from people and and talking my face off, listening to countless podcasts where I regret at least a half hour of everyone, everyone that I listen to, I'm completely [ __ ] mortified. I go back to that feminine

7:22 · Unknown · John Dee, Edward Kelley, and angelic scrying

and the feminine tells me like, you know, lick your wounds, pats me on the back, says, now gently go back out because this is not about you. So, um, essentially, uh, you you he had to use Hawkley had to use somebody, uh, you know, feminine, young to that was able to to download these things. I guess we would call it modern vernacular. Now D did the same thing through Kelly. Um and he tested those visions and what he got was an Ininoian. He got a language, an angelic language. They never call it

7:59 · Unknown · The angelical language and key Enochian sources

Eninoian. In the histories, it's said that this language was delivered to the Hebrew patriarch Enoch by the great angel A. But they call it the angelical language. And it's got its own syntax, its own grammar. uh it's a fully fleshed out thing. Now, some of the best works on the the historical side, one of my favorite books of all time uh on this stuff was actually John D and the Empire of Angels by Jason Louuv. And if you really want to dig deep into the In Nokian, you can um you can look at uh

8:39 · Unknown · The angelical language and key Enochian sources

Frather Yakita's Inkian Magic in theory and Inokian magic in practice. And of course, what is essential for the Eninoian library is the work of of Aaron Leech um who is also a fraud um in the hermetic order of the Golden Dawn and we've done some stuff together. Uh his stuff is is really indispensable. Great work because he he has the audition. They're scholarly. They're well put together, but he has the insight of a practitioner of decades, which he is. So, um, if you want to learn more about the history and and the

9:20 · Unknown · The angelical language and key Enochian sources

syntax and you're really interested in that stuff, those are the works to check out for me. But what we derive for the Golden Dawn is that a series of elemental. So there's a whole system of of magic that comes with these angelical communications and all of that stuff is fleshed out. Um you could also get John D's five books of mystery. Those are essentially his his journals of the experience. He was journaling all this stuff and it's you know illustrations of the tables and all

9:57 · Unknown · Watchtowers, tablets, and the Golden Dawn system

that stuff. And the big things that came out of it were the sigilum deigulum de or emit. So that means sigulum is the seal de is of god and emit or is truth. So the sigil of or the seal of the truth of god or the seal of god's truth. That's the big thing that comes out of that. and then the enosian or the angelical uh watchtowers, the terrestrial tablets um that are in the quarters. And it's primarily we in the Golden Dawn, we use the the terrestrial tablets, the one which are the it's the same thing. There

10:43 · Unknown · Watchtowers, tablets, and the Golden Dawn system

are the watchtowers and they are comprised of a square with many lesser squares filling it out and it has the angelica language and many many names of angels intelligences uh and and and names for God uh written on these things that you have to work and you have to memorize and you have to learn how to especially now in ZAM this is this is a lot of The work that I've been doing is learning the formulas that are specific to the Golden Dawn to a degree, but a lot of it did come from uh the Deian Kelly stuff or was inspired by

11:24 · Unknown · Watchtowers, tablets, and the Golden Dawn system

it. But there are many ways to work these tablets, many ways to read the names, many many na ways to to um to vibrate the names and and to perform that kind of uh scrying magic. >> Can you utter a cool Inkian phrase? Uh, that's that's about it. It sounds a little silly. >> It's a little It's It's a little silly, but there are there are rules of pronunciation um that that you have to follow. Kind of sounds like big Latin. >> It does sound like Latin a little bit.

12:09 · Unknown · Watchtowers, tablets, and the Golden Dawn system

>> Yeah, absolutely. Um but the the terrestrial tower uh tablets and the watch the watchtowers they're put in the four quarters and they're essentially elemental tablets and what happens is the the elements and the elementals are drawn in to a temple space specifically through this focal point through this lens of this enoian tablet. So, if we're working the elemental grade of earth, we need to do an advancement into Zelada. Um, uh, or or an advancement into theoricus from Zelder. We got to have

12:47 · Unknown · Elemental grades and advancements

the Earth tablet there. >> What What is an advancement? >> So, you're only initiated as a Neoight. you're then advanced um actually technically you're initiated as a as a neoight and then you're also initiated as a salad and then the rest of them are advancements which means you're moving forward you're moving on but there's there's a different connotation to the word initiation than there is uh to advancement. So each grade is not an initiation. Most of the grades are advancements.

13:22 · Unknown · Elemental grades and advancements

Then you are initiated into the the inner order in the 56. That's also an initiation. Uh but then the rest of the stuff are advancements. That's what we call them. So you know you you as you go through the elemental grades more tablets are open for you. You're introduced to them in turn. The first thing that you see they're not present in the Neoi hall. They're there but they're veiled. they're covered. You can't see them. >> And then you go into your your zelot

13:50 · Unknown · Elemental grades and advancements

grade and you know then you're introduced to the earth tablet and so on and so forth. It's because we're calling in these energies specifically through that filter, through that lens, through that focal point. and um all of the Golden Dawn correspondences, all of the whatever you want to call them, god forms, uh the the the great names, words of power, all of them have some place on that Enochian tablet. All each one of them have multiple in in each square, you know, they have they share space.

14:30 · Unknown · Enochian as a multidimensional magical switchboard

It's it's this beautiful beautiful I don't want to call it a filing cabinet because that makes it sound too mundane and boring. This is a [ __ ] switchboard for the universe. Um which is absolutely incredible. Uh and not just like just astrally theorically like it's a it's like a multi-dimensional switchboard. But the thing is about Eninoian, it's not the a angel magic of love and light. It's the angel magic of everything. Which means this stuff can be psychologically

15:12 · Unknown · Enochian as a multidimensional magical switchboard

damaging. And it's actually one of the re that is the reason Paul Foster case an initiate of the alpha and and and Omega which was the Mathers's temple you know their order of the golden dawn after the split he was initiated into that and he had correspondence with um it was either that or he was with the Stella Matutina I can't remember but he he he was initiated into one of the splinter orders of the the the the first Golden Dawn schism and he corresponded with Israel Reggerity and he says to

15:45 · Unknown · Dangers of Enochian magic and psychological dissolution

Regggery in his private letters um which I've read you can read them they're online uh that Enino and Magic has made like somebody that he knows go completely insane one of his friends and this is not something that's it's not rare enough to not be to not have perked your ear up. uh you know it's it's definitely something you hear about working with these energies and working with with the angels and this kind of stuff. It has a tendency towards dissolution if you start at it too

16:19 · Unknown · Dangers of Enochian magic and psychological dissolution

early. Uh but on the other hand, many many magicians and adepts swear by it that um and Jason Lof put it the best. Ininoia magic is a form of magic that anytime you work it, you change in some way. Something about you changes. Um and it is powerful and it's potent, but at at the same time, can you handle that energy? Well, if you just answered the question with with, "Yeah, I think I can," then you're not [ __ ] ready because I'll tell you, I mean, this stuff is shoved down the line in the

16:54 · Unknown · Dangers of Enochian magic and psychological dissolution

Golden Dawn C. You don't It's your last like or second to last test. And when I say test in the adept grades of the Golden Dawn, I'm talking about you have like seven exams or or like eight exams from neoight adeptist minor to to theoricus adeptus minor. So in two two of those subgrades you have seven exams and each one of those exams has like a written test a practical maybe two or three practical tests and five or six reports. So you I mean you're constantly doing this work and this stuff is

17:30 · Unknown · Dangers of Enochian magic and psychological dissolution

reserved for the end of ZAM which normally like people ZAM alone is supposed to take you a minimum of five years to get through. >> Wow. the outer order. Like the quickest you should be going through the outer order of the golden dawn if you're doing it correctly is three years. That's the quickest. Three years in the outer, however long you need in N, you know, and you need to spend 9 months in the portal, right? It's that gestation period. You're supposed to go back into

17:55 · Unknown · Dangers of Enochian magic and psychological dissolution

the womb, that probationary state before you enter the inner order. So three years in the outer order, nine months in the portal, and then you're you're in NM for however long you need to be there to get all your stuff done, all your tools made and all that stuff, which is arduous, and then you're in ZAM for a minimum of five minimum of five years. That would be breezing through it, and then they give you no. So don't think that you can just go and start doing this [ __ ] Um or try it, have fun, and

18:25 · Unknown · The Enochian aethyrs and visionary work

uh write me. But there's another thing in um in the in Nokian stuff that are called the ethers and these are you do the scrying of the ethers. They involve these calls and their visionary experiences. And these are very cool. Crowley did these. I think that's how he one of the ways in which he kind of channeled certain things for I think either the I think it was the book of the law. But, um, there's a whole lot in in uh, we could do a total we could do like a a two-part episode on Inino and it's so fascinating

19:01 · Unknown · The Enochian aethyrs and visionary work

and so voluminous. And one of the one So, there's two quick anecdotes I want to tell about the workings with these angels. They don't they don't care. They're not It's not like I said, it's not the magic of love and light. It's not this fluffy new age interpretation. These entities are perplexing and often horrifying. Um, and universally, um, some people enjoy working with them, other people go mad. Uh, but you typically find this kind of escatological throughine. And what is esquetology?

19:46 · Unknown · Strange angelic communications and wife-swapping episode

Esquetology is the study of the end of the world. And from a particular standpoint microcosmically, that's very apppropo spec specifically for for for the work that's being done in the five equals 6. The end of your world should come. Um, but they they do some pretty strange things. And obviously, you know, if you're a little bit of a skeptic, you're going to scratch your head and be like, "Was it angels or was it something else?" Because at a certain point, the angels that D and Kelly are in touch

20:23 · Unknown · Strange angelic communications and wife-swapping episode

with, they tell them to swap wives and they do it and they like record this this weird experience of them swapping wives at the behest of these angels. And then on the other hand, you've also got, you know, the [ __ ] of Babylon from Revelation appearing to Kelly and and several times in the operation, Kelly said, "We should stop. I don't think we I don't think that we've contacted something that's like good. I think we're in touch with dark forces." And then D goes on to say, "Okay, well,

20:54 · Unknown · Strange angelic communications and wife-swapping episode

let's test them again." He tests them by the, you know, by certain means involving Christ and things like that. And then there's another there's another time when I think Raphael, the the archangel Raphael comes to D andor Kelly and tells him like in the middle of the night like you've been delivered this information incorrectly, here's the rectified table. Here's the right way to do this. And so then from that point, it's like the rectified Raphael and uh Eninoian angelical uh tables and stuff

21:29 · Unknown · Strange angelic communications and wife-swapping episode

like that. And uh and so it's it's fraught with all these weird inconsistencies and and these, you know, uh hairpin turns. We're going here now. And just it's it's one of the most fascinating things I think I've ever and I love history. This is one of the most fascinating tiny little things that I think has ever occurred in the history of uh at least in the in the West. >> Yeah. So it has it sort of as it has been passed down through these lineages as time has gone on with multiple more

22:06 · Unknown · Refinement of Enochian practice through later adepts

and more people working with you know have there been a lot has there been probably like a lot of refinement and uh testing and um conclusions that could be drawn that people are pretty safe saying like you know that um these are some methods and ways to go about these things. These are common results. Um is it kind of been pretty fleshed out, is there still a lot of up in the air stuff with it or >> Well, the great thing is that people who who even if you're a highly ambitious pain in the ass beginner and you're like,

22:49 · Unknown · Refinement of Enochian practice through later adepts

"Fuck this guy. I'm going to go and do it." likely you will get to the the stuff and having no discipline, having having not had to undergo wrote memorization that tantamounts to a is tantamount to a college a PhD in in western magic. You're going to look at the stuff and it's you're going to see the mountain of information and you you're not going to know your [ __ ] from your elbow. You will not know what to do with this material. So thankfully most of the people working and

23:18 · Unknown · Refinement of Enochian practice through later adepts

commenting and writing on this stuff are very high level adepts. They're very practiced typically from all traditions, you know. Um I mean that inclusive of the the Croian stuff, right? LMO Det even though he's you know he's kind of in the Crowley camp if I hate having to divide it like that. I I don't really think it's divided. But if we're talking about those orders, the Otto, the Lima, etc., you know, he knows what he's doing when it comes to Ininoia magic. He's very

23:48 · Unknown · Refinement of Enochian practice through later adepts

very practiced. He's nobody can deny that he knows what he's doing. Um, so and he's worked he's done work on that, too. Uh, I think his thing was called Ininoian Vision Magic was the name of his book. Uh, and they actually worked off of some of the the stuff that Mark Stavish put ended up putting up putting together the theory and practice of Ininoi and magic in that in the IHS monograph series. He he was when when when Lon was doing his experimentation, Mark was giving him certain materials.

24:20 · Unknown · Refinement of Enochian practice through later adepts

Uh and so a lot of a lot of highlevel people Mark uh Frader Yakita who is um just his stuff is the highest level stuff I think that's that's out there in terms of a working golden dawn adept magician. um him um Aaron Leech you know so there's a lot of people in the field contributing and there is you know there's this whole thing where it's like okay the golden dawn went off in these different directions and Mats and Wescott kind of created this switchboard universal switchboard like I was saying before it

24:59 · Unknown · Golden Dawn vs Dee/Kelley approaches to Enochian

wasn't necessarily the case with Deian Kelly that's not what it really was um they didn't really know what it was uh they just wanted to keep in touch with these angels that were always kind of dangling this carrot on a string in front of them. Go here, go there, do this, swap wives, you know, go go to Hapsburg or wherever the hell they were uh were going. And um so you've got some practitioners like Aaron Leech who have done a tremendous amount of work to you know re or rectify

25:37 · Unknown · Golden Dawn vs Dee/Kelley approaches to Enochian

Ininoian uh magic as Deian Kelly might have been practicing it or or had delineated but you know Sloan manuscript and stuff like that. Um whereas you've got somebody like uh you know working in the Golden Dawn tradition and you know the if you wanted to if you if you if you really wanted to learn Ininoi and magic at least the beginnings of it like the entry levelvel stuff like the the hi I'm new here you could just go to the last chapter in the black book in regurgen dawn any edition and it's there

26:12 · Unknown · Golden Dawn vs Dee/Kelley approaches to Enochian

um there are lots of things that you you won't be you know There is definitely an oral component to this stuff. I mean, people don't know that, but you should you should assume that because all spiritual lineages have some sort of oral component. Um, and if you don't receive those, then you're kind of you're doing, you know, cookbook magic. And uh that that's a little, you know, you're not magic is less like cooking and more like baking, right? You've got to be scientific and precise about it. Uh, and

26:43 · Unknown · Golden Dawn vs Dee/Kelley approaches to Enochian

those that oral commentary will will help you refine and and tell you what am I supposed to be seeing? What am I not supposed to be seeing? I mean, it's generally accepted that if you're at this level where you're where you're working the Ininoian squares, you know, on the tablets, if you don't know what you're supposed to be seeing, there's there's an issue. You shouldn't be here yet. So, uh, because you will have studied all those correspondences for, you know, probably

27:08 · Unknown · Testing, scrying, and oral transmission

at least a decade at that point. So, um, and you will have had to pass tests. You know, I mean, there's stuff in the Golden Dawn in in in the ZAM curriculum particularly. If you can't scry, you're not going to pass that test. If you can't objectively come out of vision and tell your examiner, he gives you a symbol that you haven't seen before and he knows what that symbol means. You don't. And you have, you have to scry into that symbol and come out and tell him what that symbol means. or her. And

27:41 · Unknown · Testing, scrying, and oral transmission

if you can't do that, you don't pass. So this this is the level this is the level of of work and achievement that has to be shown before you you go to Ininoian. So um I mean that's so there there's there's some there's a lot of communication between higher level adepts but again you know a lot of this stuff you're going to be talking about like okay let's say in a in a golden dawn perspective hermetic order of the golden dawn I'm going to be primarily discussing these things with one person

28:17 · Unknown · Testing, scrying, and oral transmission

my uh my uh administrating teacher my the the adept in whose charge I am in terms of he needs to grade my work and and and all that stuff. Now all my work goes to the chiefs of the order, right? Every I have to he says okay he passed but they have to sign my they have to you know okay my attestation and then you know have I need a dispensation to go to the next grade or what have you. So, those are the only people who I'm really going to be talking about those a lot of those experiences with.

28:52 · Unknown · Testing, scrying, and oral transmission

Um, but you know, obviously we all talk. We all, you know, just magicians just in general. You know, I'll talk to whoever. I don't mind telling, you know, Mark or or or Jamie or, you know, or JMG or anybody what I'm experiencing because I know that, you know, I can trust those people and they're they're having similar experiences. So, um there's definitely I guess the short way to answer your question if I if I if I understand it correctly is that like you will by the time you get to work the Anokeian

29:29 · Unknown · Testing, scrying, and oral transmission

squares and tablets and all that stuff, you you know what to expect and if it's off, you know that something's wrong. So, I'm not necessarily looking at anyone else to tell me like, am was I supposed to experience that, you know, because these things, at least in the Golden Dawn system, are finally honed. Finally finally honed, you know, it's not it's not there's really not a lot up to interpretation at that point. >> Yeah. The more you talk about it, the more I have respect for the Golden Dawn

30:05 · Unknown · Introduction to Cornelius Agrippa

system. Um, all right. So, I got about a half an hour or so. I don't know how you are on time, but maybe we can get into a little bit of a grippa and see how far we go. All right. So, who is this agria guy everyone seems to be talking about? Maybe give me a little bit of background on him as a figure, a little context um into maybe a biography and then we can get into a little bit my questions. >> Sure. So he was um a Renaissance physician, soldier, polymath, theologian, scholar. Uh I guess all this stuff is un comes

30:48 · Unknown · Introduction to Cornelius Agrippa

under the fold of polymath. But uh most importantly for our purposes, he was an occult author and he was the first occult author to attempt a system systemization or a scientific sort of rehabilitation of what at the time was considered this superstitious right pharmarmacia type of practice. Right? He rescued it from German folk tradition even though it had been very nicely nestled there, right? It it it was transmitted through centuries uh and and developed uh you know and was was was safely lodged in

31:34 · Unknown · Agrippa, Renaissance magic, and occult philosophy

this time and place uh as a folk tradition and then at that time right 1500s you just had I mean I can't imagine what it must have been like to to been alive at that time and working and because you had all of Plato and the corpus hermeticum all that stuff was lost to Europe. They had one so there was one platonic dialogue in Europe through the middle ages and that was the time that had been translated into the lingua frana of the time that was available for study. Marcelia Facino I think in between 1460

32:16 · Unknown · Agrippa, Renaissance magic, and occult philosophy

and 1480 translates and publishes maybe 1440 and 1480 I can't remember but in that block of time those like 30 40 years he translates and publishes the entire works of Plato the entire extant works of Aristotle the works of Platinus Pfury Proclasicus um and the entire corpus Hermetica So now all that shit's just here. And uh and then you have Cornelius Agria Heinrich Cornelius Agria von Netishheim. You have him calling all this stuff, looking at it, looking into it. And not only that, but

33:01 · Unknown · Ficino, Paracelsus, Trithemius, and Agrippa’s influences

you had Paracelis too, who was local. He was, you know, it was German, like in that same time and place. and and Paracelis the great alchemist and Spager Spageric you know the founder of Spageria he gave us the philosophical essential of salt that third philosophical essential. So all this stuff that is modern magic as we understand it happened right before Cornelius or right as Cornelius Sigria was incarnating and as a young man came under the toutelage of a an uh essentially a bishop. He was in an

33:38 · Unknown · Ficino, Paracelsus, Trithemius, and Agrippa’s influences

abbot. So he was in charge of a monastery and his name was Yannis Tmius. They call him Trimus. So this man was essentially, you know, the head of a monastery and he was well respected enough obviously to have attained that position, but he had a little, you know, he was a little iffy uh having to do with clerical authority and the general, I guess, rules of engagement of of of the the clergy at that time, the Catholic Church, right? which was don't read magic, don't do magic. You know, for the

34:17 · Unknown · Ficino, Paracelsus, Trithemius, and Agrippa’s influences

most part, you have people like Thomas Aquinus, right, who had written uh and his teacher Frader Albertus or Albertus Magnus really. um uh you had them taking these principles and bringing them into a Christian a Catholic kind of fold uh a world view um which wasn't it wasn't artificial. It's not artificial because these things start in Pltonism. Christianity was founded in the blood of Pltonism. That is the blood that runs through Christianity's vein is Pltonism is Plutonic. So they in in bringing these

34:58 · Unknown · Ficino, Paracelsus, Trithemius, and Agrippa’s influences

things back and bringing neoplatanism back into Christianity >> uh and all that stuff they were really it was just another salvad coagula experience taking apart and they're just bringing it back together and Cornelius Agrea had the benefit of studying under trus who collected the the the illegal books the illicit books he went around in I think it was Spawnheim was was the place where his his abbey was at least for a time and he would start these libraries, these occult libraries and he

35:29 · Unknown · Ficino, Paracelsus, Trithemius, and Agrippa’s influences

would, you know, he was on the low, right? There were whispers through the community about him practicing magic. Eventually, I think he was stripped of his position or he had to move, but he Cornelius Agria stayed with him and I think he was young. He might have been like in his teens and he had so many conversations with him about magic and about where it comes from. So now he's got the German folk tradition and he's sitting with an educated abbott who has these books that had disappeared for

35:58 · Unknown · Ficino, Paracelsus, Trithemius, and Agrippa’s influences

centuries recently been re-ransated. This man in the light of Catholic theology and what he understands about neoplatanism and and hermeticism is now telling this young man this is how the universe works. This is what magic is. Let's talk about it. And it was from a those series or the initial conversations that Agria was inspired at this young age to begin writing the three books of occult philosophy and he sent Trius drafts and Tremius you know told him keep going keep pushing your work. Uh ultimately the

36:35 · Unknown · Agrippa’s manuscripts and publication history

manuscript of the three books was stolen or fell into the wrong hands was passed around Europe and uh it was Cornelius Agria had received word that this was going to be published by other persons and at which point he said well I'd better just get it out. I I wanted to revise it. I wanted to do X Y and Z. It doesn't look like I'm going to get the chance to do that. Let me just edit it one more time as fast as I can and put it out get it out there before these people do and steal my work.

37:06 · Unknown · Agrippa’s manuscripts and publication history

>> Damn, that's badass. Um, so you could say that he had a grip on things being at the time that he was. Um, uh, okay. So, I kind of browsed through just, you know, a little bit of the contents of some of Agrippa's stuff, and some things stood out to me that I thought would be fun to talk about. Um, one in particular was elemental qualities and mixations as applicable to the soul. You know, it's obviously very interesting for me because it's sort of got alchemical connotations with the

37:39 · Unknown · Elemental qualities and mixtures in Agrippa

elemental things and whatnot. And, you know, I would assume you got like the air element which is going to be associated with uh the intellect kind of like we were talking about earlier. um the earth with the physical um and so on and so forth. But kind of like interested in maybe some examples of these uh mixings or m I don't know if that's what that means the mixtures >> mixtures. Yeah, it just means mixture. But um so here's what's kind of important about the agrippen system and

38:15 · Unknown · Elemental qualities and mixtures in Agrippa

not only that but plays into the work of of D and Kelly who again was this was all right around the same time um as far as history goes. But there are four elements right and there's a fifth element. So everything we talked about, it's really funny because we tend to get into these discussions now that highlight a specific sort of thing, you know, a theme, a general motif. And we don't do this on purpose because typically we don't really communicate very much about what we're going to talk. I will have some

38:56 · Unknown · Elemental qualities and mixtures in Agrippa

vague idea. We're going to talk about a grippa golden dawn stuff and then but I don't really know what we're going to talk about. But it always ends up having this really interesting kind of synchronicity that we we keep circling back to. We started out talking about the the element uh the the um the the w the the implements elemental implements. Then we talked about the elemental tablets and now we're talking about the elemental mixtures. But what has been unsaid is the quint essence the fifth

39:24 · Unknown · The fifth element and the Tablet of Union

element >> spirit and um in the in the golden dawn system there is an implement for that. Um, in the Eninoian system, in the Golden Dawn, and otherwise, there's a tablet for that. You have the four terrestrial tablets of the quarters, and then you have the tablet of union, which sits on your altar in in the midst in the center of all of them. And you're not to work these tablets without the tablet of union because the tablet of union unites and binds them under the opaces of spirit. And in the Golden Dawn, we have

40:06 · Unknown · The fifth element and the Tablet of Union

a saying. It's invoke the highest first. So we never ever open anything elementally without first invoking spirit because spirit has to govern these things. It would be like letting a bunch of toddlers loose in a candy store with nobody to watch them. You know, bringing in elementals without spirit there first. So, and what does that look like? It looks like things going on fire. If you're talking about, you know, a fire grade, um, in in terms of of of water, uh, you know, there could be high

40:40 · Unknown · The fifth element and the Tablet of Union

emotions. Somebody could start crying, not really know why. In air, somebody could people have literally gotten dizzy and had to like sit down, almost pass out, things like that. So um earth a great example would be like you know uh nobody having the energy to do it you know like just feeling heavy uh feeling weighed down depressed things like this can all you know I mean it could even you know it could even be like literal like like a pipe bursting in the water grade or something like that. So you need to

41:14 · Unknown · Spirit governing elemental forces

really um and all these things are things that have happened. You know, you really have to invoke spirit first so that the elemental energies do not get out of control. And and one of the things that agria says is that everything has a spirit. Everything has quintessence. And one of the um the things that have more of that quintessence will have more of whatever whatever virtues are inherently in them. So the more spirit that thing can contain usually evidenced or predicated on its consonants physically its physical

41:55 · Unknown · Spirit governing elemental forces

manifestation of you know it's perfect physical manifestation of one or several particular virtues um in the case of like red jasper assoc the planet Mars and the element of fire if that thing looks if that is shaped like a flame and bright red and maybe you found it in a really hot dry place. That thing has a lot of spirit because it's very much like it's really showing forth its virtues. The fire and the marshall virtues. If it's dark red looks like blood, that's Marshall. That's Marshall.

42:33 · Unknown · Quintessence, occult virtues, and material signatures

You know, that's so that would be said to have more spirit. And that's true in people. the quality of our character and and the way that our that the virtues are embodied in us will influence our appearance and influence the way that we speak and and move and things like that. And uh but the one thing that's that's really interesting to me is that Agria talks about the most useful application is when a practitioner or a magician or whatever word he uses in Latin is able to extract the spirit the quintessence

43:11 · Unknown · Quintessence, occult virtues, and material signatures

and project it. So there's that to me that's that's very very interesting because that is essentially what the alchemical order what the alchemical outer order of the golden dawn is doing you know um it's extracting spirit from the four elements and then in that solve phase and then going back in the coagula putting everything together again right synthesizing everything under the off opaces under the governance and guidance of spirit of the quintessence. So that's that to me

43:50 · Unknown · Quintessence, occult virtues, and material signatures

is really interesting. I just wanted to touch on that in there, you know, and there's there's a little bit of of a grippa uh thrown in there as well. And that's obviously the the entire significance behind the pentagram, which is such a a huge feature both aesthetic and otherwise in the occult and magic. It's literally that it's the four elements when when when the pentagram is upright under the governance of spirit. This is man, right? This is what we're supposed to be. No other animal can do that.

44:25 · Unknown · Quintessence, occult virtues, and material signatures

Um, you invert it, which is what dark occultists like to do, and you're invoking the opposite. You're subjecting spirit to the impulses of the four elements which are the material. >> Yeah, I was going to ask about that inversion. So, I'm glad you touched on that. And then with the things that you mentioned, does this have anything to do with the infusion of the occult virtues? cuz I saw that as a uh you know in the table of contents one of the subjects was infusion of occult virtues and I was

44:57 · Unknown · Quintessence, occult virtues, and material signatures

wondering uh in regards to these is that something that you had mentioned or is there a lot more to it than that? Well, um, so and I think this also touched on on something that I talked about before starting right when we started talking about the wand starting from like the most available material which is something physical. So when when a grip is talking about mixtures and when he's talking about infusions, he's talking about um you have essentially three different kinds of permutations uh in

45:31 · Unknown · Infusion of occult virtues

terms of substances. You have substances that are pure. So they're they're very very strong. Pure and he calls them unmixed. Very very strong. It's one virtue or another. Then you have mixed or compound. And those are things that are mixed, right? But can be purified. And then you have something called um I think he calls it like middle spirit. But it's essentially uh uh a variety of different virtues that cannot be simplified. They cannot be purified. And there are a couple of different operations

46:12 · Unknown · Infusion of occult virtues

um that Agrippa talks about in terms of magic and specifically uh herbal preparations. He he does speak at length about herbal preparations and infusions take place more with the the the uh plant uh materia that kind of work. So what he's doing is he's talking about creating an environment where you can infuse something with a particular virtue based on um uh you know liquids that you can suspend this thing in and this preparation with this herb with that other herb. And um those kind of mixtures that he's talking about in

46:53 · Unknown · Infusion of occult virtues

that sense are uh essentially he calls it to to He he says and I'm going to paraphrase it here, but I was writing about it last night and I just I don't want to screw it up. Uh but he says it you can imbue things with the virtue of many stars and those are you know that's kind of like this infusion and this mixture. So if I'm taking something let's say that is very very strong uh for uh one particular element or one particular virtue and I want to combine that with something else. I

47:30 · Unknown · Mixtures, herbs, and natural magic

wanted to combine fire and earth or something like that. Uh because depending on which system you're using which a gripper lays out in the first in the the first the opening chapters of the first book there's different ways you can get the elements to work together. You know, there's one way of looking at them where like there's actives and passives and like the primary active and primary passive can't, you know, they they have a volatile volatile mixture, which is to say fire and water. And then he

47:59 · Unknown · Mixtures, herbs, and natural magic

delineates a platonic way of looking at them, which is it's reversed. You know, those two are harmonious. Um, so, so he's talking about these com finding the virtues in things on the earth and and it's crazy because now it starts to all unravel. You need a lot of you need a lot of theory behind this. That's why there were three books. You know, I think there's 74 or 73 chapters in the first book. Um but essentially you can find the nature of that thing based on its appearance, on

48:35 · Unknown · Mixtures, herbs, and natural magic

its taste, its smell, its scent. You use the five senses to figure out what virtues and he agria says this is not easy. It's not like oh yeah just go ahead and do it. He's like this is incredibly difficult. the greatest minds of all time worked together over centuries trying to figure out, you know, try trying to correspond these things and and notate it and preserve these notes. But essentially, you use your five senses to figure out what objects and substances contain what virtues to what

49:09 · Unknown · Mixtures, herbs, and natural magic

degree. Are they mixed? Are they pure? are they, you know, um, uh, that that middle nature where it's like there's no way to purify this. And once you have delineated that, you can begin to work with them. And you work with them based on your theoretical knowledge of the way that the elements will or should permutate with each other. Will they be friendly? Will they be um, antagonistic to each other? And you can do things like create herbal preparations and that can heal people or can bring love potions and things like

49:47 · Unknown · Demiurgy, theurgy, and the ascent through the elements

that. But ultimately what we talk about there is is in and he doesn't call it this but it's been called this before and I want to delineate it very clearly. That kind of magic is called demiergy. Okay. >> Oh interesting. as opposed. Some people call it low magic, some people call it field magic, some people call it natural magic. But that's what the first book of AO philosophy is about. It's about natural magic. It's about demi-urgy. You start changing things in physical existence

50:20 · Unknown · Demiurgy, theurgy, and the ascent through the elements

with by way of the four elements, right? You've got the demiurge who you know under under one system of correspondences you know is tantamount to the the ineffable name the tetra grammaton yode vave as fire water air earth respectively to each of those letters that's what you're working with in demiergy you're working with the elements but when you get to the which is the point of the three books now you're incorporating the the the fire of spirit which is in shin. It descends in between the elemental

50:56 · Unknown · Demiurgy, theurgy, and the ascent through the elements

demiurgic name and rens away upward away from having to uh gratify my material desires by changing my material circumstances and now I'm more focused on spirit and what agrippa would say being perfected in the divine mind. And so Agria in the course of his three books really he's reconstructing the trying to rehabilitate magic from demiergy but he he essentially says which is witchcraft but he essentially says you have to start with demiurgy >> because the analogy that I kind of created that that he he he kind of hints

51:39 · Unknown · Demiurgy, theurgy, and the ascent through the elements

at is that that's where we are. We're in Malcud the Visayiah. We're in the physical universe. So we are, if you look at it like some people would call this like the latter of virtues, you know, you have to ascend. I prefer to look at it in terms of a musical scale, you know, and what's happening there is that the physical material is the root note if you if you understand music is the root note of a specific key. Whether that's fire or whether that's marshall or whether that's jupitarian or

52:17 · Unknown · Planetary keys, signatures, and magical correspondences

whether that's whatever it is. There's three registers. The terrestrial, the celestial and the supra celestial or divine. You pick a key planetary correspondence. I want to I want to work the in the key of Saturn. So what do you do? You go and find maybe an elm switch, right? Because elm is is is is correspondent to Saturn or you know uh some black tormylene or something like that some sort of stone or or crystal and you work from there. You find the root note you use this you find the synthamada which he calls

52:58 · Unknown · Planetary keys, signatures, and magical correspondences

sigilum signatures. Each thing has the signature of a particular celestial influence and behind that a virtue that is imparted by way of the celestial rays. And then you just play that key. You play it up and you play it down. And that is to say you climb that ladder of the virtues beyond just the material, even beyond the celestial. And once you're able to travel beyond the celestial to the divine mind, you there remain uh continually perfected. You you're made perfect there. >> Yeah. Yeah. It totally reminds me. I

53:34 · Unknown · Planetary keys, signatures, and magical correspondences

actually recently just got sent uh a couple spir um from a friend of mine Danielle Coutri in Australia. Her thing is called Yantra Medisa. And you know, one of the ones that she had sent me, it it contains uh you know, colloidal gold. It's got honey infused with it. Um you know, all pertaining to that particular octave, if you will. Uh having those associations of like, you know, that sovereign preservation sort of correspondences and uh you know, just inculcating a a that particular virtue. And she goes so far

54:15 · Unknown · Planetary keys, signatures, and magical correspondences

as to even like simatically sound bathe them in specific corresponding frequencies of course you know astrologically auspicious timing like you said the planetary correspondences and all that. So yeah that's a perfect example that kind of corresponds to exactly what you're speaking about I think. Um, and so there was a couple other contents uh that kind of stood out to me as well and I don't know some of them we might have time to get into one. Okay, let's touch on uh inclinations of

54:50 · Unknown · Enmities and volatile magical combinations

enmities. This word en enmities I'm actually I'm not familiar with that. Um maybe you could speak a little bit to that. Yeah. So, it's basically like um I forget exactly what context he's talking about enmity in, but enmity is basically like disagreement or dislike. So, it's there's there's certain points in the first book where Agria talks about, you know, substances and and elements that are inharmonious that if worked together uh become volatile. So that's it's basically and what you also

55:27 · Unknown · Enmities and volatile magical combinations

have to remember I said it like it's like this huge thing. Yeah. There's like 73 or 74 chapters but some of the chapters are like a paragraph or two paragraphs. >> So um you know it's really funny with a Gria 2 because you'll look at like I have I have the book open here just because I've been working on it for this class. Um, but there's like chapter headings that are so enticing, you know, uh, you know, I forget like especially in the beginning how the planets are distributed among the

56:06 · Unknown · Agrippa’s strange folklore and hidden causes

provenence among the provinces and kingdoms or things like uh, you know, just say like hypothetically how you know adepts attract occult virtues and by what means are they extracted from certain material and like you race to this chapter and you open it up and it's like this. If you were to just look at the contents, it's like the secrets of the universe are in here and then you open it up to the chapter and it's a [ __ ] paragraph and he basically doesn't say anything. So it can it can be like so

56:44 · Unknown · Agrippa’s strange folklore and hidden causes

disappointing to read these books, you know, because I mean half of it's kind of like this protocience and then half, you know, another part of it is like folklore about like, you know, uh I don't know if just certain crazy things, you know, just as a joke completely being facitious, but like crazy stuff like, you know, uh if you're having trouble sleeping, rub a snail with your thumb with your right thumb, rub a snail until you fall asleep. You know, it it it's like so so there there is a little bit

57:19 · Unknown · Agrippa’s strange folklore and hidden causes

of that in there. But an interesting thing to point out about a grippa is that he says in the intro, basically I'm paraphrasing, there's going to be a lot of ostentatious and crazy sounding [ __ ] in here. If you're not into it, ignore it. I have ignored it. But nonetheless, I have also recorded it. So while these things are silly, and this is what he says verbatim, do not ignore their causes. >> And so what he's talking about is that even though a lot of this stuff is pointless naval contemplation and this

57:50 · Unknown · Agrippa’s strange folklore and hidden causes

silly kind of uh, you know, ritualistic folk [ __ ] the underlying theory is supremely important because it's telling us how the universe works. you know, whether you believe certain things or not, it's it's the underlying theory that you should be paying attention to. And having gone through all this stuff and, you know, studying this stuff for as long as I have, he's not wrong. >> Definitely. One of the major ones that I wanted to touch on was going to be light and color and magic, but I think this

58:21 · Unknown · Agrippa’s magical worldview

one we should probably save for like another episode because that's probably a big one and I think that you probably have a lot to speak on in that regard. Um, >> so I guess yeah, are there any um, you know, just due to timing, are there any just interesting aspects in regards to a Grea and this massive tome that you want to speak to um, kind of in closing out? Any closing thoughts? >> I don't because I feel like I already gave away too much. So, you know, cuz there's like, you know, there is a lot

58:56 · Unknown · Agrippa’s magical worldview

more um particularly in like the the celestial magic and the super celestial or divine magic. The main thing if you want to study agria, there's a few things you have to understand. And the central tenants of making heads or tails of the agrip the agrien work is understanding the magical worldview. He does not lay it out. He does poultry. He does very little to actually tell you what these, you know, and and some of that is him saying he says it also like I've not written this for people who aren't wise. The wise

59:38 · Unknown · Agrippa’s magical worldview

will be able to read this book and come away knowing, understanding, doing magic, but the unwise will will walk away from this, you know, none the wiser. So that's something that he explicitly stated about this work. Um, and so the the underlying tenants of the magical worldview that are are fully delineated in Platonic and Neoplatonic philosophy. He relied heavily on Prolis. He references Plato and Pythagoras constantly throughout the work. Constantly. um he quotes Platonic and Pythagorian axioms.

1:00:18 · Unknown · Plato, Pythagoras, and mathematical realism

So what what are they too known for? You know Plato obviously known for the mystical Platonic dialogues that expound the magical worldview. In the Tiamus you have the microcosm and the macrocosm which is you know that that is hermitism as above so below. In Pythagoras, you have number mysticism, which is of supreme importance to the three books of occult philosophy. If you cannot understand mathematical realism, you will not understand a grippa. But what's more important is you will never be able to

1:00:54 · Unknown · Plato, Pythagoras, and mathematical realism

understand magic. And that's about all I think I'll say. Beautiful. Excellent teaser. Um why don't you go ahead and tell people if they are listening uh to this maybe if they have time since you are doing a extended course uh in regards to a grippa where they can check that out um and then follow that up with of course your channel and all of that. >> Yeah. So when is this going out by the way? >> Uh I'm going to try to put this out ideally before Thursday. Probably I'm

1:01:29 · Unknown · Agrippa course details and closing announcements

gonna try Thursday >> this week. >> Yeah. >> Awesome. Okay, cool. So, Monday, August 21st at 8:00 PM Eastern is the first class of a six-w weekek course uh that will be taking place at the same time every Monday for six weeks on the three books of occult philosophy. Uh each book will be given two two-hour sessions um and a different teacher. I'll be teaching the first book on natural magic. Jamie Paul Lamb will be teaching the second book on celestial magic and Mark Stavish will be teaching

1:02:08 · Unknown · Agrippa course details and closing announcements

the third book on uh super celestial or divine magic. Um there are links to uh the IHS, the Institute of Hermetic Studies. There are links to this um course where you can sign up, you can register or learn a little bit more about it on on my Facebook and my web page which is ikebbaker.com. Um and all my links are there. Um just look around a little bit and uh you will also be able to you'll be given supplemental materials if you register for the class. you'll have lifetime access to the recordings of the class

1:02:49 · Unknown · Agrippa course details and closing announcements

because they they're going to be on uh these Zoom and Teachable platforms. It's not in person. Uh you can do this from the comfort of your your your office or your living room or even in your bed. Um and you'll have lifetime access to those recordings. And I'm also giving out a free ebook called Cornelius Sigria and the Magical Worldview, which will be available to all registrants of that class. Again, you can check that out on my web page, ikebaker.com. Um, and that also has all my socials. If

1:03:23 · Unknown · Agrippa course details and closing announcements

you're having trouble finding that, either me message us here on the Patreon or just send a message to my Instagram or Facebook page. I'm pretty quick. Uh, and that's that's really it. This is going to be an amazing class. I mean, like, if I just just Jamie and Mark alone, you know, like if if I >> He's got a super team going. >> And I I know it's crazy. And the thing is like I I'm so looking forward because we have not we've not really communicated on what we

1:03:53 · Unknown · Agrippa course details and closing announcements

were what we're going to teach. We had a a preliminary meeting on like, you know, okay, six hours is six years is not enough for these three books. So six six hours is not enough to cover the entirety. So what do we focus on? But we haven't really corresponded at all on like you know uh approach. So each teacher is going to have their own individual approach and I am like thrilled to see what Jamie and Mark come up with. This is like a once in a-lifetime type of type of class right here.

1:04:26 · Unknown · Agrippa course details and closing announcements

>> Yeah. >> How about you man? >> What you got? First, I I'll include those links in the description below for people that are watching this in the Patreon. That way, you just jump on over there if you're interested. And for myself, check it out. Philosophical Minds Podcast as usual. And yes, thank you again all for supporting uh me and Ike here on the Atherica podcast. >> And thank you, Sky again. Thank you.