0:00 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Nephilim, biblical interpretation, and “therapeutic blasphemy”

weren't necessarily like benevolent beings. According to the Bible, the Nephilim like, you know, tormented people. They ate human beings at a certain at a certain point, you know. um they were the progeny, the offspring of of in in in certain books and in certain interpretations of rape, you know. So, uh it's not nec the magic of the Nephilim. And this to me personally, this all this stuff is a product of what what I love Mark Stavish. He calls it therapeutic blasphemy. >> And it's like I'm bored with Christ.

0:45 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Questioning Luciferian timelines and Steiner’s framework

Christianity was the dominant hierarchical paradigm of my lifetime. And yes, it was abused. So, I'm going to throw the baby out with the bath water >> because this is edgy and this is different. And it's like you But when you really commit to understanding something, you you don't need anything else. That's my opinion. That's my opinion. >> Yeah. It seems like I'm curious at the time frame of which this lightbearer was said to have fallen to because uh when when you look at the conclusion of this

1:18 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Questioning Luciferian timelines and Steiner’s framework

strain of Luciferianism, it's associates like I was saying Lucifer with Arammon and in this document that I was reading, it associates them as synonymous uh this tradition that I >> on what grounds, >> right? >> I'm curious on what on what grounds. So I found that I thought that was interesting too because like you were mentioning with the theosophical society and like Steiner and the anthroposophical works of Steiner and when you listen to Steiner and his model and the way that

1:47 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Questioning Luciferian timelines and Steiner’s framework

he describes Arammon and Lucifer basically like a dipole of forces one more so of materialism and the other as more like mysticism >> intellect >> um >> which seeks to elevate us arrogantly beyond beyond our actual capacities, abstraction and the balance being uh life in the middle as the Christ or the equilibrium. And then you know he speaks of the incarnation of the cosmic spirit of Christ descending down and uniting with the human uh you know Yahashua I think is what he actually

2:27 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Luciferic vs Ahrimanic forces and the Christ balance

referred to the name as >> and the formation or inclination of the assemblage of an army of Christ and the arising aspirations of Jesuitism to attack spiritual scientific knowledge. And he gives this example of himself at this time I guess being attacked by the Jesuits. Um so I thought that was interesting too. And then he talks about prior to the incarnation of Christ the dominant incarnate force of the time was that of the luciferic. And he says the Christ impulse shown its light into the best of

3:05 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Luciferic vs Ahrimanic forces and the Christ balance

Lucifer's endowments to humanity. and that the Christ impulse um or and that that the Christ was only understood by virtue of what humanity had received from Lucifer. And as time went on, the luciferic impulse faded. Then too did the understanding and ability to comprehend the true nature of the Christ impulse. Um, at the time that the gospels were written, people people's state of conscious people's state of consciousness was about imbued with the luciferic quality that allowed them to grasp the gospels with a kind of

3:49 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Luciferic vs Ahrimanic forces and the Christ balance

luciferic nosis and how the luciferic impulse faded with the emergence of the arommonic and uh or how the luciferic impulse faded with the emerg emergence of the Arammonic and how just how like the incarnation of the luciferic and the cristic. So too will be an incarnation of Arammon uh in the third millennium AD is what uh Steiner kind of lays out. And he talks about how Arammonic powers are sending down from super sensible worlds in order to secure as great of a following as possible via the obstruction of certain prevalent types

4:31 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Cycles of consciousness: initiates, priests, and economic man

of thinking. And that the only thing we can do basically is to prepare for that arrival. and that the people in power of the time in the luciferic time were the initiates uh in this era where it was this era of these priests and priests kings and and now or or the time of the luciferic was the initiates then the era of the priests and priest kings during the time of Christ and then now of economic man the the world is ruled by the agents of economic ic factors in the age of the arommonic deception. And then

5:10 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Cycles of consciousness: initiates, priests, and economic man

he also talked about the spirit of cooperation um that built the pyramids as being that of the time of the luciferic. So, I found that interesting after talking with you as well as uh Drew McKinnon uh because he has visited Egypt a bunch and you were just in Egypt and you both kind of said something similar about the notion of perhaps the greatest secret was that of the cooperative attitude of humanity and that you know what we can do with our cooperative will and potentially the you know these great

5:45 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Cycles of consciousness: initiates, priests, and economic man

structures were built by the cooperation of humanity. But that's kind of related. But yeah, I just wanted to lay all that out because I found it it's just so interesting listening to his take on things where he kind of breaks it down and it does seem like there is this uh you know there has been this time of emergence of this sort of materialistic um uh dissension if you will. And um you know if you if you read what he says it seems like it all kind of lines up. So, I just kind of wanted to get your

6:19 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Critique of Steiner and channeling as personal gnosis

thoughts on all that. >> Yeah. I mean, the stuff that he's using as symbol systems, at least stuff that he's sort of and I know I know that I know that Steiner was um quote unquote great channeler and and uh intuitive and things like this, you know. I don't know. Do I know? I don't know. Um I'm not going to debate with anybody. Not trying to hurt anybody's feelings, but um at the end of the day, I have I have tried my best to read some Steiner and it's just uh we end out in

6:55 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Critique of Steiner and channeling as personal gnosis

like outer space, like the outer rim planets really quick. >> So, um it's it's not that to me is not ground that I can spend much time in. >> I prefer I prefer that that stuff is a very and this is for I'm saying this as me now, right? one of the loudest people that you're going to probably encounter. Very animated New Yorker, you know, Italian and Greek, you know, shouting about things I care about. Um, but I think that those types of chneled, received things, they're best kept as a

7:31 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Critique of Steiner and channeling as personal gnosis

personal nosis. They're best kept as a personal guide. I don't believe that that stuff it should be lectured publicly about. Um, and I I don't think that there is great value in I mean I think that's one of the things Crowley did. He f he absolutely found his higher divine genius and you know what he did? He imposed that on the rest of the world. It's it's not you know that's for you. You know that's the strict admonition of through in initiation initiatic systems indefinitely.

8:06 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Critique of Steiner and channeling as personal gnosis

Keep silence. That's where it's most apppropo when you this is we're going to teach you how to do it and we believe you can. And if you do X, Y, and Z, you'll make that contact. But that doesn't give you the right to go and start banding that about giving lectures, writing books on that kind of thing, you know, um because it's for you and it might not be true for other people. people people might you know one of the things that Mathers says um Sam Mats one of the founders of the Golden

8:38 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Critique of Steiner and channeling as personal gnosis

Dawn he writes in in the early inner order documents that were circulated among the the the the first class of the Golden Dawn he says that to tell a person paraphrasing but I'm close to tell a person something that they are not prepared to understand is to do no better than to lie to them >> because they will make the worst of it because they cannot understand it. So, I see I see Steiner's point and I see Blatzk's point. I understand what they're saying in the symbol systems.

9:07 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Archetypes, symbolism, and issues with labeling forces

When I hear you talk about that, I'm like, "Yeah, that sounds that sounds on the money to me. It sounds it sounds true." But I'm the thing is that what's unclear to me is where the derivation of Lucifer and Arian, right, coming from that's that's Zoroastrian, you know, that's Iranian sort of stuff. Where are we feeling like those are as archetypes? Sure, I understand exactly what he's talking about. But why why this distinction? Like did okay, was it channeled? Did you intuitit it? Well,

9:41 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Archetypes, symbolism, and issues with labeling forces

you know, that's fine, but you you know, you can't or maybe you shouldn't say that as if like this is objective truth, you know? I mean uh so but I I understand that part of channeling is is learning to sort of be attentive and receptive to the subjective uh worlds the interior images that arise in our minds in order to communicate things that really transcend words. I understand that. But um my confusion with that is where where the derivation of Lucif Lucifer and Arimon as agents of

10:18 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Archetypes, symbolism, and issues with labeling forces

mysticism and materiality um to the exclusion of other you know archetypes. Uh where does that come from? So um but but like I said earlier I agree with all that like I think that that sounds very very conssonant with what is actually happening. >> Yeah. Yeah, it is kind of a double-edged sword because I mean, yeah, it could stir up interesting conversations and kind of elaborate on points and, you know, people can go back and forth and stuff, but then it also does cause loads of confusion, I think. And um but yeah,

10:55 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Historical origins of Lucifer and Ahriman

cuz it's like just trying to get to the bottom of this whole Lucifer thing and looking at the historical mentions, you know, with Steiner or the Theosophical Society or an Anthroposophy, those are fairly modern. And then you look to the some of the older sources, you see the one mention of it in the Gospel that he had mentioned. And then I guess yeah maybe primarily Zoroastrianism which is something that I haven't really explored too much so I don't know how it depicts Lucifer or is that the name that it goes

11:29 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Historical origins of Lucifer and Ahriman

by or do you know much about that? >> Um not Lucifer. Lucifer is is the Latin trans translation of you know the morning star in in uh in the mention of of you know of that entity or astronomical body for all we know in in the old testament. So not the New Testament, the Old Testament. >> Um, and Arman is sort of this shortening of Angramanu, which was the adversarial force of the universe in the dualistic conception of um of Zoroastrian or or early Iranian uh cosmology, cosmoggony, right? It was uh Ahura

12:18 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Zoroastrian dualism: Ahura Mazda vs Angra Mainyu

Mazda, >> which was shortened to Ormos. Hormos and then Angramanu and those were the the the archetypes for light and dark and and sure yeah yeah you know Arian wanted to consume Mazda you know and yes absolutely it's that kind of negative dense magnetic um whirlpool end of that dipole of of Aurora Mazda and Angra Manu Arman and um you know the great translator of these philosophical ideas was um Zarathustra or Zoroaster, you know, and he he kind of was this this um initiate priest uh teacher in in his

13:06 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Zoroastrian dualism: Ahura Mazda vs Angra Mainyu

time and era. Some really cool stuff in in that early Iranian stuff. Zoroastrianism is very very interesting. But yeah, you know, it does it it just gets confusing. Now, had he had had you said, you know, had had Steiner said all that without having to label it luciferian and arimmonic, >> it would have been like to me it would have been like more successful because that now I'm not trying to picture things that don't really relate. You could have just said these are the dipoles, mysticism and materialism. you

13:38 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Zoroastrian dualism: Ahura Mazda vs Angra Mainyu

know, I don't need the names, you know, but um I think that that is one of the ways and this is a golden dawn teaching. This is very very important actually. I'm glad we kind of stumbled here. Unless a very very very very very refined vehicle, somebody who puts them in the position to receive knowledge from the quote unquote interior or higher, they will always be tainting or filtering that message through their ruach, which in the cabalistic conception is their psyche. you know their their intellective faculties, you know,

14:21 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Zoroastrian dualism: Ahura Mazda vs Angra Mainyu

the lower um or the middle really six sephirot of the tree of life, you know, um the those kinds of the interior person. So your your personality, your ego, your passions, your intellect, they're always going to taint that message to a degree. And so in in you know in Steiner's instance yeah I mean maybe his ruach quote unquote his subconscious the penultimate expressions of those dipoles was the figure what he knew or understood about Arian and what he knew and understand about and understood

15:00 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Zoroastrian dualism: Ahura Mazda vs Angra Mainyu

about Lucifer and so he used those names and in this way right channeling gets confusing >> because you don't even know if you're getting it right which is why it should remain private >> you know but Um, but you know, I I think that to be 100% honest with you, that is one of the most astute assessments of what is going on, you know, bar none that I have heard from any kind of supposed mainstream channeler. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I agree with him. >> Yeah. And I think it's probably a lot of

15:30 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Moloch: sacrifice, rulership, and etymology

these teachings that he was doing at the time, you know, maybe they were a lot more applicable to the people that he was speaking directly to. and then >> right >> you know coming down to us modern day it's like what is he talking about um but in terms of that sort of uh like consumption aspect that you were mentioning with like Arman or Ingram Manu I think that this links to a lot of what is also maybe associated with Moolok um maybe do do you have any uh assessment or thoughts on Moolok

16:10 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Moloch: sacrifice, rulership, and etymology

Uh um what I do understand of Mollik is of a very sparse and I would say like you know I can go down like a short bullet bullet point list of of of etmology and things like that but um I think he was a Philistine god wasn't he? He wasn't an Israelite guy. I think so. >> Yeah, I think he was a a Philistine. I'm not really not really sure, but >> I you know, they sacrificed children to him. I know that he he was like father of abominations and uh and his name um meant king. You know,

16:57 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Moloch: sacrifice, rulership, and etymology

it's the same root as uh melik, right? Because in Semitic languages there's there's no there's only consonants. There's no vowels. This it was the same thing in like you know demotic and and uh and things like that. Coptic Egyptian maybe Coptic had vowels. I don't remember. I learned the alphabet and I I took tests on Coptic but uh at a certain point it kind of it they they all blur the languages. But um but um so you kind of have these different var variations, right? Because

17:32 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Moloch: sacrifice, rulership, and etymology

it's really the vowels that alter the pronunciation of words. Whereas if you have the consonant roots, MLK, >> Mhm. Melik, you know that that and especially if it's a if it's a Semitic or you know it falls under the that that umbrella uh of languages, you know that means king or something pertaining to to these things. So I understand about that much Mollik in terms of like you know substantiated stuff. I do understand that there's this kind of cult of Mollik now that's that's kind of arising in in

18:08 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Moloch: sacrifice, rulership, and etymology

in I want to say the you know the dark web areas of people's minds sort of associating that with with child sacrifice and I mean it's true historically. I'm not really aware of of how much truth there is to that now. I'm I'm not going to deny or or affirm it. But um it does make you know it makes um it kind of makes sense you know this this I mean to me to be honest you get we start getting into like you know particularly child sacrifice >> all all rationale goes out the window I

18:44 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Moloch: sacrifice, rulership, and etymology

don't understand it um I can understand human sacrifice I don't understand child sacrifice so that is that's something that you know was a reality um and Uh, I'm not saying I would do human sacrifice, but like from a historical perspective, I can understand it. >> Totally get it. Yeah. I mean, you know, >> we've all been online at Starbucks and on a hot day. We we I can understand sacrificing a few people. >> Yeah. It's so interesting to listen to different takes on all these, you know,

19:18 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · The deeper meaning of sacrifice and power dynamics

ancient deities or gods or forces. And I just it's fascinating like the Moolok. >> What do you think? Well, I I've been actually writing a kind of a long bit on Moolok just because I became recently interested in what it is or what it means or whatever. trying to elaborate further because I've made some mentions of it um on what I thought it was and I think it it is similar like the MLK like you were saying the meaning of Moolok to me I guess it's it's commonly regarded

19:48 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · The deeper meaning of sacrifice and power dynamics

as a god associated with child sacrifice but I think it seems like a more isolated or individual aspect of Moolok like uh a I think if child sacrifice is going to be done in the name of any deity or in worship of any deity. Yes, it's probably Moolok. Uh but I think beyond that in a more broad sense is the sacrificial it's like the sacrificial impulse itself maybe but not sacrificial in the way of sacrifice your energy for currency or sacrificing yourself to save a child. more so in regards to sacrificing

20:31 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · The deeper meaning of sacrifice and power dynamics

on the negative end of the polarity like sacrificing uh for your gain or sacrificing your soul or selling out or using people like a very sort of underworld subconscious anim animalistic impulse like this term or idol or figure you know it's been debated and argued about over time by so many different scholars like I was looking through all the different scholars that debate about it and you can you can kind of look at it all and glean some generalized understanding of what it represents like edetmologically

21:04 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · The deeper meaning of sacrifice and power dynamics

like you're saying with MLK and so some will talk about it in association with the notion of rulership or to rule others uh you know to sacrifice or to offer other interpretations are to own or possess you know there's historical accounts of the MLK rights or sacrificial rights associ assiated with indeed child sacrifice or at least human sacrifice. So, you know, whether figuratively or literally. Um, but if we kind of string it all together, sacrifice to possess or own or to rule, we can look

21:44 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · The deeper meaning of sacrifice and power dynamics

at it as sacrificing as the action to rule as the outcome. like to possess or own as the result you're doing the sacrificial act or uh for possession to rule like the biblical term that lech or whatever it can it's translated to as a mulch sacrifice but usually it's translated straight to moolok um >> yeah they do that they they do they do that a lot especially in like King James version and stuff like that they'll they'll they won't translate certain words that that are Like like when

22:20 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · The deeper meaning of sacrifice and power dynamics

Christ says you cannot serve two masters, you cannot serve God and Mammon. Mammonas meant money. But they, you know, he's a regent. And so all his whole kingdom relies on money. So he can't very well put that in the Bible, can he? So >> yeah, but it's like it's like why? What's beneath the act of of sacrifice? It's seeking to own or possess or rule. And >> I think that's like a very materialistic notion in the sense of the inclination to want or accumulate.

22:50 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · The deeper meaning of sacrifice and power dynamics

>> So then you could ask like what's behind that impulse? What what drives what drives it or like why is it even there? And >> and and this is this is we're getting to the heart of this is actually very gnostic. This is very very gnostic. And I'm I'm liking the direction we're pulling in because yes, how what historically why did people sacrifice It was a contractual thing. I'm going to give this up and you're going to give me this. We did that, you know, in ancient

23:20 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Ritual sacrifice, contracts, and biblical parallels

Greece. It was done in the grimoire tradition. It was done in Alexandria in the first few centuries CE with uh you know the sort of like itinerant gun for hire magician who was like commissioned by a noble or a merchant to uh you know you look at the PGM and there's spells for like removing chicken bones from your throat and uh and you know spells for like driving someone mad until they finally fall in love with you. So there's a lot of like quidd proquo where it's like I'm going to just use the

23:54 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Ritual sacrifice, contracts, and biblical parallels

unseen world to get the things I want. But there's always a contract. And one of the interesting things and I think it's one of it's was one of the points of departure I have with I think it's one of the exceptions that I find of with the Old Testament in terms of speaking uh you know the God of the Old Testament speaking from the place of the of of kind of like a malicious um secondhand creator entity. It's the It's when he orders Abraham to go and offer up his son Isaac on the mountain

24:28 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Ritual sacrifice, contracts, and biblical parallels

>> and Abraham goes and in tears he he's about to do it and at the last minute God sends an angel stays his hand and a lamb appears and he says we're going to sacrifice this lamb, >> right? But he's he he doesn't go through with it and he says, "I'm we're going to sacrifice this lamb instead, >> but I I appreciate your faith type of thing, but I will provide the sacrifice now. you're not going to give your kid to me. I will provide the sacrifice

24:53 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Ritual sacrifice, contracts, and biblical parallels

because it's a test of your faith. And so you see that again echoed in the Christ. Christ is referred to as the lamb specifically because of that sacrificial, you know, aspect. And it's provided once again by God, you know. So, uh, there's something really interesting there. I'm not sure if that's the direction you were going with, but it just kind of it kind of popped into my head. >> Yeah. I mean it's just the sacrificial impulse itself is fascinating to me and there's a lot behind it like all the

25:23 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Polarity: Luciferian vs Molochian extremes

things that we get into like consciousness itself and the nature of being and the nature of mind and if you study the esoteric nature of things you know with the cabalry like as the upright above so to speak aspects of being but then there's also the below the inverted or the quitholic you know I never can say that right the subconscious >> yeah subconscious just aspects of being. So, you know, I think and there's a guy I talked to Ian Ferguson. He draws attention to this sort of polarity

25:54 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Polarity: Luciferian vs Molochian extremes

um which he uses the luciferian and the malian as kind of the poles. And I think it's it's good on one hand because you know it's two of the most extreme ends of the consciousness impulses. Um, if you're looking at these things like the Maloian sacrificial rulership, owning, accumulating, more and more greed, devouring at the bottom, and then at the other end like open source, anything goes, ultimate liberation, give it all away, let it all out type like polarity. Um, but like it in the Maloian sense,

26:28 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Polarity: Luciferian vs Molochian extremes

you're you're talking like you're so desperately trying to feed a neverending dark void and luciferically I guess you're giving it all away, evaporating all sense of sacredness almost uh all light expanded to the point where it's simply that it's ultimate nothingness itself at its highest expression. In that sense, it's like Milwaukeean implosion verse Luciferian explosion. Um, you know, but >> yeah. >> Yeah. So, it's interesting and I think we need them both to exist in order for

27:09 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Polarity: Luciferian vs Molochian extremes

the spectrum of, you know, to offer the diversity of experience uh by the way that we utilize them and create with them. If if we think of them as like black and white paint on the canvas of life, so to speak, we wouldn't have the multitude of grays to shade and paint our experiences. Uh I think, you know, they they're both uh built into the software of being. They're like the essential code for our operating system in some sense. They're they're like forces or aspects of consciousness that

27:45 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Polarity: Luciferian vs Molochian extremes

we have to have in order, like I said, to like fill the spectrum. But it's like if you take one to one extreme or or the other to the other extreme, I mean, that's that's where you're getting into trouble. >> Yeah. Well, that and that's the thing. When I talk about things like, excuse me, when I talk about things like, you know, opting out of the system, uh, in terms of price, I'm not talking about, you know, necessarily sell everything you own and go live on the street as a hobo. Like, that's not

28:17 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · The middle path, balance, and true sacrifice

that's an extreme. >> Yeah. That's an extreme, you know, and and in our day and age, you know, to me, right? It's it is like you kind of we've kind of been thrown around cabalistic terms. It's really the middle pillar, you know, and and and not allowing materiality to pull us to extremes. That's the ultimate sacrifice because truly what that entails is a death of the old nature and a rebirth to the new which is one that is perhaps untraversed by us as yet at certain points in our

29:01 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · The middle path, balance, and true sacrifice

development in our lifetimes. The middle path, the path of mildness, not a lot of people nowadays want to choose the path of mildness. We want to like, you know, there's this whole thing where it's like I want to suck every drop out of the orange, you know, like I want to just I want to have, you know, just there's that like that terrible meme about like sliding into your grave and saying, "Wow, that was fun." You know, it's like that's that's what we want to do. We

29:26 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · The middle path, balance, and true sacrifice

don't want to walk the path of of mildness. That's the true sacrifice while we're here is is to, you know, because it's it's really it's a balance of of active and passive states. And it's it's the the alchemical reebus, you know, it's the marriage of of Saul and Luna or a marriage of Saul and Luna, you know, the active and the passive. And it's it's ultimately the path of reintegration as Christ said, "Straight is the way and narrow the gate and few

29:57 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · The middle path, balance, and true sacrifice

there be that find it." >> Um, and and that that is ultimately Yeah. Exactly what you're saying. And I think also there's something to this idea of child sacrifice, at least symbolically, where it's like this I'm giving away my innocence, >> right? Because that's what children children symbolically, you know, and in reality are innocence and you're sacrificing that innocence for material gain. Absolutely. >> Absolutely. For material gain. And I mean, that's kind of what we do in life.

30:26 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Symbolism of child sacrifice and loss of innocence

We continually when when we when we're allowed to be brought to extremes of desire, ambition, anger, happiness, even happiness. >> Yeah. um we sacrifice our innocence and you know I think it's in the Fedrris but um I use this all the time because it's perfect goes back to everything Socrates kind of relates this idea of two horses one one black one white and one pulls on the high road the other one pulls on the low road and it's the charioteer's job to kind of be able to

31:06 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Symbolism of child sacrifice and loss of innocence

to rest power from both of those things and direct them so that there can be some kind of productive direction to travel in. And what he says is, again, I'll paraphrase, but I'm kind of close. You are just as much enthralled to the illusion of life when you are happy as when you are sad. A lot of people think that spirituality is finding this kind of happiness out. I would not say that that's true. You know again you if you are excited if you are happy what does that tell you? It means

31:40 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Symbolism of child sacrifice and loss of innocence

in the moment in the present moment you are fully invested in the illusion >> you know and again you know it's I'm not saying that you choose this this this kind of like way of don't do anything don't be anything sit on a log and meditate I don't really think that that's helpful either in our current day and age but um the understanding you know of I'm on the wheel right I'm on the wheel of fortune and this is kind of a cynical away. And a lot of people poke fun at me

32:12 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Wheel of life, detachment, and spiritual perspective

for it, but the thing is if once you kind of get it, you understand when I'm at the top of the wheel, you know, call it the wheel of fortune, the wheel of the tarot or or the the the wheel of samsara. When I'm at the top of the wheel, there is nowhere to go but the bottom. But on conversely, when I am at the bottom of the wheel, there is nowhere to go but the top. And kind in that way, you begin to train yourself to be at the center of the wheel. you know, the hub is still while while the the peripher peripheries revolve.

32:46 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Wheel of life, detachment, and spiritual perspective

So, that's kind of where you eventually want to get, but it happens in your mind first. You know, it's an attitude. It's a way of looking at the world first. There's that famous saying, I forget who said it, but you know, free your mind, your ass will follow. >> Yeah. Yeah. And to me it's like it's all all these mythologies of gods and goddesses they all represent archetypal potentialities. All these stories whether they happened physically in the past is irrelevant because there's

33:15 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Archetypes as inner realities and human behavior

nothing new under the sun. Um it it's all happening now. Like sacrifice happens every day for better or worse. And spiritualization happens every day for better or worse. It's just to what level do you want to take it and to what level do you want to embody these archetypes because they holographically exist within us all? That's kind of how I see it. And I'm not saying I'm right, but I'm I'm saying that's uh kind of a comprehensive way that I've come to make

33:44 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Archetypes as inner realities and human behavior

sense of it from, you know, evaluating the different information. And I have a you know in correspondence with my experience interacting with other conscious beings and observing you know human nature. And so I think it's like the like the mo thing maybe it's like the negative polarity of that other polarity like there's like nested polarities. So if we have like the luciferic let's just let's use this terminology for the sake of this discussion. And if we have the lucifhpheric on one end and then the uh

34:17 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Archetypes as inner realities and human behavior

maloian or armonic or whatever on the other end and then it's like within that sacrificial node there's also polarities one being cuz you're speaking of there's like the positive aspects or the right ways of sacrifice and then there's like the I mean yeah you can I guess we could use positive and negative for the sake of the the point. Um but yeah and then it's like then we can get into just knowing that these exist within all of us and that we have the ability to go into whatever path we choose with what

34:52 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Karma, consequences, and moral responsibility

you know whatever we decide where we want to go while hopefully keeping in mind and understanding another part of this whole algorithm karma. And this is where I get, you know, kind of confused with anyone that decides to want to go on a hard Maloian quote unquote path of materialistic domination, you know, and get more and more money and [ __ ] them, sell them vaccines, sell them whatever, and make more money, [ __ ] it, sacrifice a large part of the population. Uh, it gets it gets me more power, more

35:24 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Karma, consequences, and moral responsibility

rulership, more uh possessions because, you know, I I think karma is real. uh you do reap what you sow. So ultimately, if you're operating by that kind of [ __ ] it, screw it, uh screw them all mentality, lie to them, you know, you can basically [ __ ] yourself and you're already [ __ ] yourself whether you know it or not. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean I mean that's that's a whole thing like along with this kind of secularization of worldview like to the nth degree completely um through educational

35:58 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Materialism, societal conditioning, and spiritual cost

systems and things like this media you know you may you're gaslighted. You're made to feel like a [ __ ] idiot because you believe in anything that transcends you know dead materialism. And so over time, right, being young, being impressionable, you know, all the worst [ __ ] was marketed towards kids when I was a kid, man. You know, like it's only in retros, it's only in retrospect that that you realize it. Like I was watching trash that was brainwashing me toward a very particular worldview. And from that

36:29 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Materialism, societal conditioning, and spiritual cost

worldview came this vicious, you know, Venus fly trap of uh socioeconomic Darwinism, >> which is basically exactly what you're saying, survival of the [ __ ] fittest. Now I don't have to run from a panther anymore, but I've got to figure out how to, you know, [ __ ] him before he [ __ ] me and, you know, make as much money as possible. And what has that done? You know, sure you got the nice house, you got the nice whatever, you got the trophy wife, but you know, how much do you sacrifice?

37:03 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Materialism, societal conditioning, and spiritual cost

How much of your time? You know, the only nonrecupable resource, how much of that have you [ __ ] given away for what? >> Can you even enjoy it? Has the person you have had to become even somebody who is able to enjoy the things you have accumulated, you know? And then not only that, but you know, people like that, they're not going to even stop to think for a second about the metaphysical aspect, but you know what happens to your soul? You know, >> what happens then? That suffering, that

37:36 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Materialism, societal conditioning, and spiritual cost

itch, that pain that you take out on other people that that you know presents itself as this nasty boil on your personality, you know where that's coming from? It's it's coming from the the the arid aridity of your interior environment. Your soul is suffocating. Amen. Um this was absolute banger of a conversation. Um is there anything else that you would like to add in regards to any of the subjects that we've talked about before we kind of close out? >> Um I think I am rung out like a sponge.

38:13 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Closing reflections and future collaboration

I have had I have had so much fun doing this with you. I'm very glad that this conversation is kind of the inaugural uh conversation of the Etherica Astral Garden thing that we're doing. I couldn't be happier to be doing it with anyone else but you. And I think our conversations are something really special. And um you know I I'd like you know this was just kind of it kind of just happened. we were going to do like uh a podcast interview tonight, like a conversation, but I I'd like, you know,

38:48 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Closing reflections and future collaboration

I I want us to go back and forth uh a little bit more because I really think that you are a very good and balancing counterpoint for a lot of the you know, at the very we agree I think on a lot of core things, but I think that our delivery methods um kind of balance each other out. So, I think that you're a very good counterforce to to the conversation. >> Vice versa, complimentary indeed. Um, where would you like to direct people if they could find out more about any of the projects that you've got going on?

39:23 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Closing reflections and future collaboration

Maybe your channels, your social media, anything. >> Uh, yeah, obviously it's the um YouTube.com arcanum. A R C A N VM. That's the YouTube channel. I do weekly podcasts and educational presentations uh on the Western esoteric traditions and related topics. Um I've uh I'm teaching a course with Jamie Paul Lamb and Mark Stavish through the Institute of Hermetic Studies uh three books of occult philosophy by Hinrich Cornelius Sigrio. We're going to be teaching a course on that. It's called The

40:04 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Closing reflections and future collaboration

Foundation of Western Esotericism Explored. I'll be doing book one. Jamie will be doing book two. Mark will be doing book three. That's running every Monday from August 21st to September 25th. So, 6 weeks, two hours uh per session, two sessions per book. Um I think it's a a fantastic value. And um you can uh look that up on the Institute for Hermetic Studies Teachable platform. Um and I will link to that on my Facebook page and Instagram, all that stuff. That's a big thing coming up

40:40 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Closing reflections and future collaboration

soon. Um I would encourage everybody to kind of hop on that because I feel like there's been a lot of interests around it and um you know, if you if you can get a seat, you you you'd really like to be able to as soon as possible. And how about you, man? Where would you like to direct people? >> Uh, check me out if anybody's interested. Um, on the Philosophical Minds podcast. Uh, you could find that on the all the major RSS feeds, uh, YouTube as well, Philosophical Minds Podcast, and then on the Instagram at

41:12 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Closing reflections and future collaboration

PhilosophicalMinds Podcast. So, um, check me out there. And yeah, thank you so much again, Ike. And this is going to be an awesome channel that we are creating here. So looking forward to the future. >> Amen. >> All right, brother. >> Absolutely.