0:00 · Sky Mathis · Intro to Vatican and Jesuits

foreign [Music] welcome to the etherica podcast the podcast for the modern philosopher magician I'm Sky Mathis joined with magician Ike Baker and today we're going to dive into the Vatican as well as the Society of Jesus aka the Jesuit order and other pertaining subject matters so to jump into it um speaking about the Jesuits uh at least modern day they comprise a conglomerate of about 17 000 worldwide approximately there's a vast variety of opinions speculations interest in this group from all

0:51 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Yeshua, Jesus, and translation history

different angles so I just thought it would be awesome and fun for me and Ike to talk about this um I've heard a claim a few times as the Jesuits as being primarily responsible for the change in the name of Yeshua to Jesus I don't know if that's true uh but it seems plausible and I kind of wanted to ask you and get your opinion or your thoughts on that uh like the changing of the name Yeshua to Jesus like what's up with this whole idea and how did it come about in your estimation if you have any

1:26 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Yeshua, Jesus, and translation history

thoughts on that I I know that's maybe it's like a translation thing perhaps uh but I think it's really interesting the historical figure Jesus his name in Hebrew uh I guess was Yeshua and when it goes into the Greek it ends up as uh i i e s o u s you could probably pronounce that in the correct okay and then the Latin is i-e-s-u-s um which in English I've read would actually translate to Joshua so there's that and seems a little confusing to me but I don't know enough about that kind

2:04 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Yeshua, Jesus, and translation history

of thing to be honest but I wonder also like maybe to your knowledge was it common for New Testament figures names to end up uh completely different than the originals like this sort of thing or different figures or yeah any of those any of that stuff I'm curious about hmm well um so concerning Jesus's name one major point of clarification that I feel like I continually have to make uh is that all of the New Testament writings right so the things of and pertaining to Jesus and the sayings of Jesus

2:56 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Greek New Testament and Aramaic context

his ministry uh on Earth for a Time and the um the acts of his apostles um and basically everything surrounding and sort of just after the quote-unquote Christ event right it was it all came to us in Greek so when people say that you know Jesus's original name in Hebrew well that wouldn't have been the case because the language they spoke was Aramaic um and it was never written as far as we're aware we have no gospels in Hebrew we have some apocryphal texts that are I believe in Coptic which is a

3:51 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Greek New Testament and Aramaic context

form of late Kingdom Egyptian that is derived heavily uh from Greek there's plenty of Greek letters in there and it was a product of this Hellenistic syncretism in Alexandria primarily right after Alexander the Great and under Roman rule uh and you know in the interim period in the reign of the ptolemies the ptolemaic dynasty uh it was a sort of greco-egyptian thing and um so we see uh various forms of early christianities really um living in that space and growing out of that soil it's very interesting the the the the

4:35 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Greek New Testament and Aramaic context

Coptic population there is one of the earliest um Mediterranean uh Christian churches to to rise I mean it's the largest minority population in Egypt and it is even to the current day it's it's the largest Christian population in the Muslim world oh so you've got a lot of activity going on there and you know they're not writing and speaking in Hebrew you know um and particularly around you know in in the Roman province of Judea um they would have spoken Aramaic so there's like a big fallacy that Jesus

5:15 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Greek New Testament and Aramaic context

name was ever written in Hebrew um if we're talking about historicity you know sure I'm sure somewhere his name was written during his lifetime in in uh in Hebrew or um some some sort of Semitic script proto-semitic Semitic script but I mean the everything we know about Christ comes to us in Greek so we we can safely assume that you know without in interpolating which means sort of projecting our own ideas of the thing onto what we actually have uh and what is is is profoundly supported

5:57 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Greek New Testament and Aramaic context

is that his name as recorded was yes juice uh um just as it is in the Greek I don't know what that translates to in ah in Hebrew to be honest with you I don't think especially deriving it out of the Latin I mean I don't see it being translated as Joshua um you know I see that as yo you know Joshua or something like that instead of yesus but similar names but they're all kind of derivative you know there's a lot of similarities in in plenty of names uh from that particular you know

6:48 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Christian Kabbalah and the pentagrammaton

socio-political milieu of that time and place yeah yeah now I will say oh go ahead I'm sorry no no go ahead I will say that as far as historical evidence for the translation of Christ's name into yaheshua seems to come more from more directly from the work of a um a Renaissance capitalist named an academic scholar um Giannis ricklin and he wrote he was of the line of Christian capitalists uh you know uh Pico de la mirandula and athanasius kircher um guys like this uh so uh Giannis rooklin he wrote a a very

7:35 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Christian Kabbalah and the pentagrammaton

influential book on the Christian Kabbalah called the Wonder working word and it was about Christ and it's really from that text that particularly modern occult systems curriculumed orders they derive that like in modernism and in you know uh the inner order of the of the of the Golden Dawn they're deriving Yeshua hey in Hebrew from Johannes and and that work to my knowledge um this was something that took me a while to figure out right because I kind of worked my way backwards I started out

8:16 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Christian Kabbalah and the pentagrammaton

as a practitioner I didn't start out as an academic um so I had to find out where is this coming from symbolically it makes a tremendous amount of sense as the fire of shin sort of rending the veil of materiality it's a very very Gnostic idea there right you have the the demiurge um according to valentinian sethian and basilidian forms you know martianite forms of gnosticism being the god of the Old Testament uh who's you know ineffable name was a formula you know yodehay vave that we render is Yahweh

8:55 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Christian Kabbalah and the pentagrammaton

they never spoke that name you know they either say Adonai meaning Lord or Hashem meaning the name um but Hebrews you know uh particularly practicing Christ Hebrews they never ordered that name you know um and so as a as symbolic as it's called the the tetragrammaton which it translates to the four-lettered name four letters um representing the four terrestrial elements and then you have the shin you have Shin which represents fire and spiritual fire descending being placed in the center of those four elements

9:34 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Christian Kabbalah and the pentagrammaton

sort of rending away out of materiality so that's uh that was kind of this Exposition um that is derived from uh verbo uh midifical or the Wonder working word by Johannes I am not necessarily a hundred percent so one thing to remember is that these guys weren't like you know they're not like me they weren't like me sitting here in like this room that they've you know this library that they put together in their house and uh kind of piecing this stuff together as some sort of

10:17 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Christian Kabbalah and the pentagrammaton

independent researcher they were um within the mainstream of the academic institutions of their time and so there was an academic treaty right because this is around the 1500s um there is academic tradition that comes from these pioneering academics right I mean if you look at one thing it's like the educated people of that time were all clergy they're all clergy so there was no secular kind of like hey wait a minute it's all every all their work is based in in in in Christian judeo-christian

10:54 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Christian Kabbalah and the pentagrammaton

theology all of it is based there it is centered there they approach everything through that lens particularly of the uh medieval and Renaissance iteration of Christianity you know Orthodox and and particularly Catholic Christianity and they're the academic mainstream there is nothing else nothing else competes with them there is no independent research so from that tradition kind of it just stems Force it's taken for granted yes yes this is a sound philosophy yes it's Yeshua at a certain

11:29 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Christian Kabbalah and the pentagrammaton

point you have a break of you know a break with religious and secular uh um scholarship now we have the Seminary and we also have the secular uh universities so it's kind of after that split after a while you know I want to say maybe mid mid 20th century you start seeing this push to reassess the translation of of Christ's name um and again a lot of it comes from a let's look for the historical Jesus perspective whereas that might not have always been the spirit in which certain academics had worked so they

12:18 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Christian Kabbalah and the pentagrammaton

were confined they were confined to only you know it's like the the institution which within which they operated right the church under the auspices of the official Church gave them pretty a pretty wide breadth as long as you don't say these things you don't violate these rules I happen to think that the Christian capitalists in you know looking back to particularly athanasius kircher Pico de la mirandola looking back to the Egyptian roots of the judaic Theology and cosmology from which

13:01 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Christian Kabbalah and the pentagrammaton

Christianity um grew forth you know they kind of examining that that's really the birth of modern esotericism let's go back to Egypt to see what they were talking about and see how it comes forth and and and and really the usage of the lineal Glyph of the kabbalistic Tree of Life to sort of graft everything onto it's very esoteric so I'm not you know we can't we can only speculate as to the spirit um in which these academics and early esotericists worked in you know we don't

13:42 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Christian Kabbalah and the pentagrammaton

know if yeah maybe they maybe they looked at it more symbolically and but they just weren't allowed to voice that opinion um on the other hand it's very clear they feel very strong about uh the idea of the Christ and the the supremacy of that new testament dispensation so um those are my thoughts on the name of Christ I'm not certain if the Jesuits were behind that push I will say that the Jesuits are more within historically have been and and still are within the um the Seminary milieu of theological

14:26 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Jesuit claims and uncertainty

sort of scholarship they're there definitely not secular so um but I'm not aware of that I mean you know there are plenty of other conspiracies surrounding the Jesuits that may have greater or lesser degrees of accuracy or plausibility around them but um I'm not I'm not really certain about that and let me preface this by saying I'm there's a whole lot particularly concerning the Jesuits that I am uncertain of because you know a lot of what is available for examination is

15:05 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Jesuit claims and uncertainty

you know conjecture it's just it's just theorizing so there's really not much there's not much I can conclusively kind of point to to say no you know but but I think that it's very apropos you know it's it's very important that we keep these ideas of the name of Christ and within that context that understanding that you know it it wasn't written in Hebrew anywhere in the Bible yeah yeah I think that actually brings a lot of good Clarity especially with the petrogramaton and the evolution to the

15:39 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Jesuit claims and uncertainty

pentagramaton with the insertion of the shin from yodehay fabhe it took me a little bit to actually get that one but yeah um and you brought up a good point that I was gonna draw attention to as well something I was wondering about because exactly like you're saying and then it in the New Testament I believe that's the only time Jesus comes into the equation um and the sources are originally Greek texts like you said like with the Vulgate and whatnot and another thing I found interesting was I wonder if you've

16:12 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Saint Issa and Jesus in India

heard of this book called the life of Saint Issa and the Lost Years of Jesus in India as published in 1894 by a Russian war correspondent named Nicholas notovich he claimed that while he was at some Monastery he had learned about some document called the life of Saint Issa best sons of men uh Isa I guess being the Arabic name of Jesus in Islam according to the alleged found Scrolls Jesus abandoned Jerusalem at the age of 13. I went somewhere else intending to improve and perfect himself and the

16:53 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Saint Issa and Jesus in India

Divine understanding and to study the laws of the great Buddha he went somewhere else pinu Penny or Puri jagana or something a lot like that uh study The Vedas under Brahmin priests spent six years in Prairie and rigory rigu near something else uh the ancient seat of Hindu learning and then went to the Himalayas and spent time in tibetan monasteries studying Buddhism and through Persia learned uh returned to Jerusalem at age 29. so it's obviously super controversial maybe the documents were all [ __ ] and the

17:34 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Saint Issa and Jesus in India

story was just complete forgery uh I don't know but I wonder if you have ever heard of this claim or this uh this dude in this book and if you have any conclusions or opinions about it yeah actually I have I actually have uh I've yeah I've read portions of it or and commentary on it um and also something I'm not sure if they're related um directly uh but another thing called the Tibetan gospels so I when I was a kid I want to say maybe like 13 or 14. just really getting into

18:16 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Perennial traditions and Eastern influence

all of this stuff after this very strange meditative experience my first time meditating I like went and had a body it was crazy and I started really getting into this stuff and of course you know you're 13 years old and um you're not gonna you know you're not gonna open up like Strong's Greek Lexicon you didn't even know what that is uh you so you're gonna go straight to the internet and there was this very interesting kind of new agey resource called The Reluctant messenger of

18:50 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Perennial traditions and Eastern influence

religion and science and so he had published a little vignettes and excerpts and dialogues and almost like a Socratic kind of um discursive uh way and it was very palatable to me because of the idea of a perennial tradition which I think also were what the were what the kabbalists the Christian capitalists were getting at they kind of they're kind of saying the same thing but they're taking different approaches to it so in things like uh you know Saint Issa and the Tibetan gospels and things like this

19:36 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Perennial traditions and Eastern influence

you have this idea that there is a tradition that exists independently of religious dogma and that some of the greatest teachers of all time somehow are initiated into or sort of tap that stream uh and this is true even of like like for instance you know all the great Greek early philosophers claim are are throughout the historical record are attested to have gone to Egypt for initiation and study I mean thales right Solon the law Giver um Plato Pythagoras in uh porphory's life of Pythagoras he says that

20:17 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Perennial traditions and Eastern influence

Pythagoras spent two in 20 years in Egypt astronomizing and geometrising and was initiated in no casual or superficial way so there's this idea that you kind of and again to me it's reminiscent of the hero's myth you know that mono myth the hero's journey The Call to Adventure I have to leave where I am to go and be initiated in the ways of the world the secret traditions and then to only to come back exactly the to the exact place I came from um and and you know with eyes Anew and

20:55 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Perennial traditions and Eastern influence

it's very interesting to me but you have that idea of of the great teachers and sages of the world and um I guess you'd call them you know avatars in in the the some of the Eastern systems you know they they kind of tap into this um underlying core philosophy or at least come to deliver it and so according to a lot of that stuff you know Jesus was able to embody to manifest in physical concrete reality a lot of the things that he learned right he was a great teacher I mean even in even in the you know in

21:39 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Perennial traditions and Eastern influence

in the book um pertaining to Saint Isa the gospel or Veda of sanisa or whatever it ended up being they're like astounded at how much this young kid knows about Spirit how much he intuitively understands and that's also true um in in the gospels when it is mentioned that you know Christ would spend as a young child he would spend the afternoons in the you know in the Hebrew temples conversing with the you know the rabbis and they were like shocked at how much this kid knew about Hebrew lawn things

22:14 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Perennial traditions and Eastern influence

like that so so kind of this knack for it an intuitive understanding of everything now the Christian capitalist on the other hand that we were just discussing they kind of they took the same idea from a different tack which was a little bit more dogmatic but still for their time kind of you know stretching those boundaries you know and uh thinking as far outside of the box as they were allowed without you know having to suffer the death penalty or torture or imprisonment um they look back and they said well all

22:51 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Perennial traditions and Eastern influence

of this Egyptian stuff and all of the the the stuff that the Hebrews learned from the Egyptians Christ was the Capstone everything that came before Christ was predicting him in one way or another and kind of proves his existence you know proves the fact that this thing that it's a reality um that you know this he did fulfill a the role of kind of completion as as he says in the gospels um the completion of the law so you have it coming from from from kind of the same thing is being said in slightly different ways uh from

23:33 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Perennial traditions and Eastern influence

different schools of thought again as to the the historical veracity of something like that I cannot attest because it's been you know what I say 13 it's been like 24 years really since I've taken a look at uh at some at that book um or those writings or whatever I was reading the commentary um behind it but I do remember it kind of really drawing me in um Eastern stuff is typically more palatable or at least it was in the place and time where I grew up uh it was very very heavily commoditized and therefore

24:13 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Perennial traditions and Eastern influence

easily consumable right wasn't that easy for me as a 15 14 year old to go walk into a library and ask for you know Thomas Taylor's translation of on the Mysteries or something like that um or of like you know proclus and the elements of theology but it was super easy to get a hold of the Dao de Chang and you know uh the the the um Mahabharata and stuff like that all that stuff was being republished through like you know uh torture penguin and all those those um kind of at the time Niche imprints

24:49 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Perennial traditions and Eastern influence

and they were on the shelves a book of Barnes and Noble and stuff like that and you could just it was just way way more palatable and kind of the air was of the time was saturated with Hatha Yoga and Qigong and and a lot of the Eastern stuff so it did draw me in further to The Vedic Traditions to see well if Christ went there to learn and he came back you know if Jesus went there to learn and he came back as Christ um then what's going on over there so um but what you got to remember is so can

25:21 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Perennial traditions and Eastern influence

you give me a date on that again real quick when did that the the that Russian uh 18 corresponding seven I think that was when that was published and and the documents he found I'm not sure when they were allegedly dated or if they were ever actually uh found or if they disappeared or what's the scoop on all that I'm not really sure I wouldn't be surprised but the thing is that you gotta a lot of people don't really tend to extrapolate from this is that why is it this is that there's this fixation on on

25:58 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · British India, Theosophy, and esoteric syncretism

specifically the the religions and practices of India and Eastern Asia at this time and I mean you look at the theosophical society you look at you know even in the early 20th century uh paramahansa Yogananda kind of you know even so even when the gold the Hermetic order the Golden Dawn was outed in the newspaper of 1880s London right after the horos Scandal and and the Crowley lawsuits and all that stuff between Mathers and Crowley over the intellectual property the rituals of the Golden Dawn and

26:38 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · British India, Theosophy, and esoteric syncretism

everything was laid bare out of legal necessity standing that it was a western tradition right they were talking about Theology and they were talking about you know uh samothresian Mysteries and and and and and the ancient Egypt the papers made fun of them by by having some advertisement or some wacky headline saying uh you know making fun of the obligation the ritual obligation of of of the um the neophyte ceremony or the Hermetic order the Golden Dawn which ended up you know being released in

27:14 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · British India, Theosophy, and esoteric syncretism

court uh uh it made fun of the obligation by saying do you swear to your to your Swami or something like that that's an Indian term that was never used and never associated with the golden dong in its earliest iteration never so um even back then The Vedic stuff was had penetrated uh you know the the the um mainstream Consciousness and this was because of in 1858 uh England colonized India you know and um they went over there and things like tea right began to be introduced uh to and spices began to be introduced to England

28:03 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · British India, Theosophy, and esoteric syncretism

and um and with it you know because you had all these adventurers and people you know writing about their their their their their sojourns in the East uh very exotic um previously sort of um inaccessible interior to them it began going over there under the auspices of the British Empire um if you had enough money you could play ball right I mean and and so they'd go over on these Expeditions and they managed to you know found things like the East India Company and things like that and uh they began to see the yogis you know the

28:42 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · British India, Theosophy, and esoteric syncretism

the the the seedas the the I guess magicians the medicine man who sat outside and contorted positions for hours and you know their heart rate and their their respiratory rates would drop and they you know some of that was them kind of seizing on this idea that like look there's foreigners with fresh money um let's put on a show that you see that you see that even in like in places that have been colonized by England today you know like places like where I just got back from Egypt for example

29:13 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · British India, Theosophy, and esoteric syncretism

um and that really is when that stuff began being imported wholesale into Western Consciousness really so it makes sense to me that like particularly like a journalist right uh that like it's just if you're a journalist it's in your blood to sensationalize everything um but uh would like Levy right elephant's Levy was he was a journalist he wrote sensationally and cryptically and you could read you could read his books 40 times like I have and still extrapolate maybe five or six sentences

29:46 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · British India, Theosophy, and esoteric syncretism

that are worth anything he said a lot though a guy said a lot but um how much of it was worth listening to we're still not sure the jury's out so um I tend to I tend to view things like that that kind of syncretic you know uh textually unverifiable or unsubstantiable as as yet sort of stuff as interesting and maybe there's a spirit of Truth but it's not something I can I'm Really Gonna be able to with any reliability admit into my sort of um interior Library definitely yeah well there was a

30:27 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Founding of the Jesuits and papal history

mythologized depiction or or whatever it definitely seemed plausible and it's kind of always stuck with me so I thought it was worth mentioning and kind of getting your thoughts on um and back to the Jesuits so the Society of Jesus as you have mentioned uh before in our previous conversations this was founded by Saint Ignatius with six other guys in 1540 approximately so way before the the papacy which I guess I didn't really realize until I was looking more into this um and I followed the list of

31:02 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Founding of the Jesuits and papal history

predecessors all the way down from Saint Ignatius uh when I was going through it was interesting because uh the popes they have a bunch of the same names a lot of like Clements uh innocence uh Gregory's honorius's a lot of them repeat throughout time uh but anyway yeah well they're they're they're they're titles like like kings like once you once you once you take that that position of power you typically take like a a Regal name it's it's kind of like a dynastic name it's not their real

31:38 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Founding of the Jesuits and papal history

name obviously oh okay that makes sense um so I kept going down from the predecessor to predecessor and I hit Pope Benedict what's IX in Roman numeral nine nine the ninth Pope Benedict the ninth AKA theophyllicus of uh 10 12 to 1056 and it was interesting because he had three predecessors listed he was the only one out of all of them that had three separate predecessors so it was kind of weird I just chose the one with the earliest date and then kept going down the list but I finally well let me ask you let me ask you real quick

32:19 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Founding of the Jesuits and papal history

you had said you had said you'd mentioned that that Saint Ignatius of Loyola and and um sort of an Entourage of other people crew they founded the the Society of Jesus in 1540. and then he said before the papacy so what do you mean by that because the the technically it's it it's before it's technically before like Vatican sovereignty but it's not before the papacy okay well maybe you could eliminate me on that then because yeah I guess this was something I was wanting to get into because I I had a

32:50 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Founding of the Jesuits and papal history

as I was going down so I hit I finally hit the last Pope and it was Linus uh Pope Linus uh 6780 and there's like an image of him holding a a three-pronged cross and something else in his other hand um so that was the the last Pope I hit before his predecessor I guess was Saint Peter himself um but then it doesn't say Pope Peter as his main title but it said Saint Peter St Peter's yeah uh papacy was 30 A.D so I guess he was a pope or wasn't a pope and then that was interesting so I

33:27 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Peter, Rome, and the origins of the papacy

wasn't sure if he was like the first pope or if it was lioness after him well well here's this thing so Pope um hope comes from the Latin or Greek it's kind of like a like a term of endearment Papa it means um father father and uh it was an appellation meaning a title that was commonly used to refer to the bishop of Rome in the Catholic Church so that's that's really that's really what that's denoting so um it's a really it's a really interesting history uh essentially what you get is

34:16 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Peter, Rome, and the origins of the papacy

um so Christ dies right or really Jesus dies according to the gospels the Christ is resurrected and on Pentecost he uh you know 40 days after um the resurrection he uh he tells the the apostles to sequester themselves in the Upper Floor of an apartment until the Holy Spirit descends upon them Pentecost these are the tongues of flame that descended upon the apostles in this upper Upper Room apartment um and which endowed them with powers similar to the ones that Christ achieved or was granted after his baptism and The

35:08 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Peter, Rome, and the origins of the papacy

Descent of the Holy Spirit and then he says you know go out into the world and preach my message you know preach the gospels right gospel meaning gospel means good news um preach the good news go to the ends of the Earth and um so I believe I believe it's Saint Peter who decides to minister to Jews Jewish community and uh Paul uh right the all the apostles at the time um kind of have a little bit of a meeting and decide which way they're going to go Paul being the only Apostle who never met Jesus

35:46 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Peter, Rome, and the origins of the papacy

while in the flesh um but arguably was the most influential Apostle of in Christendom that aside they decide that they're going to go all their different directions right and Peter goes to Rome Rome is one of the sites uh you know I mean it's the Lion's Den they're still under Nero who is he creates this place on uh which is a small hill on the West Bank of the river Tiber uh and that's where we get the name Vatican from that's the name of that Hill Vatican Hill and uh Nero sets up on Vatican Hill this

36:32 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Peter, Rome, and the origins of the papacy

weird little circus this like market and stuff like that and he crucifies and tortures and martyrs Christians there regularly for public entertainment so Saint Peter goes and he he essentially preaches the word of Christ he preaches the gospel the good news and Garner's you know he converts Hebrews um and he he becomes episcopos of Rome episcopos is what we translate as bishop and in Greek that means overseer so this these are the people who are in Bishops uh you know Episcopal boy they are the people who are sort of in charge

37:18 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Peter, Rome, and the origins of the papacy

of the whole show administratively regionally but um since Rome is it's you have to look at it in terms of the the historical context not only before during but also after Rome is the center of the known world right all roads lead to Rome the Roman Empire covered the known world of the time um you know mostly right the the Galls and the Germanic areas kind of evaded their their influence for a really long time successfully resisted that uh by they just weren't able to assimilate but um so he's he's in the heart he's in the

38:08 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Peter, Rome, and the origins of the papacy

the Lion's Den he's in the heart of the Empire and he's converting Christians and then later right uh 300 years later Christianity somehow miraculously becomes the official religion of Rome and so Rome becomes the seat of power whoever is the episcopos the overseer of the Christian communities in Rome is the head of the Catholic church and not only that but the thing is so there's this quote um I think it's from the gospel of Matthew it's uh it's really cool I went to the

38:42 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Peter, Rome, and the origins of the papacy

Vatican I went to Rome and I visited the Vatican in in July of 2019 and it was a really interesting experience to me especially as a lifelong you know Catholic um I would consider myself philosophically cosmologically theologically much more of a gnostic now but elements of Catholicism can can exist in that I know that just from experience from being both um so it was a it was a profound experience for me but what is you know what's very interesting is um in gigantic Gold Leaf across the wall of

39:21 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Peter, Rome, and the origins of the papacy

Saint Peter's Basilica is the the very dramatic uh uh quote from from the gospel of Matthew where Christ says to Peter uh to EST Petros um at petram edificado ecclesium and that in huge letters right because it's a Latin as you were saying Vulgate it's the Latin translation of the original Greek um which what that's what the mass was done in right look at that right Latin being the official language of Rome the tridentine mass being the the the the the the sync one on the the Exemplar

40:00 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Peter, Rome, and the origins of the papacy

uh the high ritual of Christianity until the 1960s right so even the language of Rome carried through Christianity and what was I born in 1986 what was I baptized Roman Catholic um but that Latin translation is basically it means you are Peter and Peter means Rock okay so that's just my aside but he says you are you are Peter The Rock upon which I will build my church so there's this this Apostolic conferral this is yours now you're in charge Christ says that to Peter directly in the gospel of Matthew so he's already

40:47 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Peter, Rome, and the origins of the papacy

kind of by the time you know those those gospels are being uh read and used he's already the ex-empora of Christianity and it turns out that according to Christian law or according to Christian lore Saint Peter is martyred on Vatican Hill in what is now Vatican square and they build in the 1500s um the largest church in the world Saint Peter's Basilica which is the central it's the centerpiece of of the Vatican really wow okay yeah and so I was gonna ask because I thought it had related to the

41:26 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Vatican Hill and the Holy See

foundation of the Vatican um because Peter was originally Bishop of Antioch which is present-day turkey and then next we have Pope Linus and Pope Linus is in uh the Vatican I guess or maybe not or maybe he's just in Rome but I guess it's it seemed to me that the the origins of the Vatican or the Roman papacy started with this Pope Linus dude but but okay so Nero was before that so do we know the original foundation of the Vatican I've read it was built on top of like an old Druid Temple but did

42:03 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Vatican Hill and the Holy See

you say that it was built in the 1500s or well well let me let me just step back there so there is a there's there are later accounts that like sort of um they come after uh the Acts of the Apostles they come after them but there are later accounts that say that Peter served as Bishop of Antioch for seven years but traditionally you know he is even even if even if that is placed somewhere in there because don't forget these guys were like itinerant Mystics they were basically like you know

42:40 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Vatican Hill and the Holy See

healers and and and uh you know magicians to to a degree they were they were endowed at the at their time they were endowed um with the same spiritual potency that Christ was after The Descent of the Holy Spirit onto Christ and onto them so um they wandered around a lot in their conversions But ultimately Peter was Bishop of Rome and it was in the 9th century really that you begin to see the term Papa being used to refer as a term of reverence and respect to the bishop of Rome but the Vatican itself

43:20 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Vatican Hill and the Holy See

is it's it was built in the 1500s on Vatican Hill at the site where it is rumored or according to Christian lore Saint Peter was crucified and martyred in or near Saint Peter's square and um and kind of built from there now in 1929 it became its own Sovereign Nation you know it's not very big it's about you know like an eighth the size of Central Park but um it is its own Sovereign Nation and so people refer to it as the Vatican and what the Vatican actually is it's a term that we use to refer to this the

44:08 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Vatican Hill and the Holy See

like Geographic headquarters of what is called the Holy See and the Holy See is the seat of power for the bishop of Rome because he has historically right he is the heir to Saint Peter who is himself the heir to Christ according to you know Catholic Doctrine really so okay so we're we're looking at the purpose the papacy okay so do you in your estimation in terms of it I guess 9th century I think you said or before that it was the bishop of Rome in general or the the head of the bishop of Rome and then it moved uh in the 9th

44:55 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Vatican Hill and the Holy See

century to like I guess official papacy in some regard well the thing is the thing is that they're the same thing so in other words the Pope the pope today is still His official title is the bishop of Rome okay so they're not they're not different they're just like um you know it's like taxi driver or cab driver you know it's like it's it's the same same it's two different ways of saying the same thing so I mean obviously right you see it a lot it's it's just a tradition but it's one of

45:26 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Ignatius of Loyola and the Society of Jesus

respect and one of consequence because right everybody knows what the pope is but also like what is what does Pope mean it means father you know what I'm saying like you are my spiritual father it's deep reverence profound respect profound spiritual bond that many people feel towards the bishop of Rome yeah okay so in terms of this idea of Saint Ignatius of Viola and these six other guys that had allegedly uh founded the Society of Jesus or the Jesuits would you agree with that or ha like how would you see the Society of

46:07 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Ignatius of Loyola and the Society of Jesus

Jesus do you see it as something that's that is just not something that had an official title until this particular time or what would you make it no I I I I think I think the Society of Jesus the Jesuits um they were the specific invention of at least in my estimation they were they were a consequence of Ignatius of Loyola this was one of the most learned and spiritually disciplined men of his age I mean he was he was a polymath he was a traveler he was brilliant um brilliant people aren't always the most

46:49 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Ignatius of Loyola and the Society of Jesus

moral you know I'm just gonna throw that out there I'm not saying anything definitive a matter of fact it's it's it's mostly the intellectual people I have met in my life that are more likely to have you know a lot of gray area in whether or not they're going to do the right or wrong thing right because it's the thing the intellective capacity well you know it's the Chinese finger trap uh sometimes you'll you know I say it all the time people learn themselves stupid

47:16 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Ignatius of Loyola and the Society of Jesus

uh but um you know which which is to say that like I am now I'm I'm no longer I'm no longer responding to life in a capacity of presence and and Duty and connection I am an arm's length from reality because I need to analyze it okay so I'm just gonna throw that out there now I do see a correlation between the Jesuits and the whole Phil of the whole created by the disbandment of the Knights Templar you know 200 years earlier so the Napoleon is quoted as saying uh I don't really know if this is even

48:03 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Jesuits, Templars, and church power

factually accurate right because Napoleon himself said what is history but a series of Lies agreed upon but Napoleon Bonaparte is quoted as saying and this is a charge that has been leveled against the Jesuits many times that they are not a monastic missionary research and you know educational order they're an army they're an army of of of of a particular agenda Within the the the Catholic church and the Knights Templar were that Army the enforcement arm but I feel that they had a much more

48:45 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Jesuits, Templars, and church power

from what I understand the the Templars had a much more heart-based morally centered uh sort of place from which they worked um one of the things that's also common to like those types of Martial military quasi military orders in the church historically is that um to temper them out to even them out or maybe to instill them with passion right they're dedicated to Saint to Saint Mary to to you know um theotokos the the god Bearer you know the carrier of Cry Of Christ um and that was true the Templars and

49:26 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Jesuits, Templars, and church power

that's true of that's true of uh of the Jesuits they're patron saints you know um are married but I see kind of that as like this dark inversion you know this it's like the Templars were a dog that you that you could rely on to be loyal when they agreed with your cause and I feel like maybe right again this is me just riffing if if I had to make this kind of let's say arbitrary comparison I would say that in my estimation it very well could be that the Jesuits were a much more

50:03 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Jesuits, Templars, and church power

well-trained dog you know which is why they're still around today and the Templars had to go so you know um so I think I I tend to look at it that way again charges can be leveled at anybody and any organization particularly if they're if there are certain clandestine meetings you'd always fear what you don't understand so I'm I'm not even saying that I get behind the whole line that the Jesuit we need to scapegoat right that's just what we do we got a point at like one group

50:32 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Jesuits, Templars, and church power

of people and say it's your fault that's just we've been doing that since since the dawn of humanity and it's it frankly it's it's [ __ ] ridiculous at this point uh no Nuance you know no understanding of uh our own part to play in um the country the ignorant contribution you know the apathy that we truly have to allow these things to exist and to go on you get to blame somebody else that's a Jesuits right yeah we don't know a lot about them they're a bunch of dudes

51:04 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Knights of Malta and Templar aftermath

screw them so uh I'm being facetious to make a point I don't I don't know what the Jesuits do what they are ostensibly from their website I did consider getting involved maybe like 10 years ago from their website like they do missionary work um again but how much does that tell me yeah yeah and so speaking of this like Army like aspect so there were there was the Templars and then there's also the Knights of Malta do you know much about the Knights of Malta yeah so um well not much but uh

51:41 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Knights of Malta and Templar aftermath

the Knights of the Knights of Malta were I believe a precursor to the Knights Templar you had the Knights of Saint John and then you have the knights Malta and then you had the Knights Templar um but what's interesting is after the disbandment of the Knights Templar um there were certain countries or locations within Europe where the Templar so because don't forget there was there was never a Templar Massacre they were never massacred they killed they burned jock their mole their their grand master on Friday the 13th uh

52:28 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Knights of Malta and Templar aftermath

actually no he wasn't burned on Friday the 13th he they were arrested in Mass um by King Philip IV of France his men they were arrested in mass and then eventually completely dismanded but jock them away their grand grand Commander was burnt at the stake many of the Templars were just exiled said you gotta go you know they were never you know they were never like slaughtered and mass and you got to remember it this time they were what for the time period was a quote-unquote worldwide organization meaning they were

53:03 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Knights of Malta and Templar aftermath

all over Europe and the known world at the time so um how could the king of France arrest every Templar in every country couldn't do that so they they were you know persona non grata in certain places but there were certain countries that allowed them passage so for instance um Portugal was a country where the Knights Templar were granted Asylum and the king at the time allowed them to basically form another order called the I think the ordered the order of of Christ um I'm drawing a blank here but

53:39 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Knights of Malta and Templar aftermath

something like that the order of Christ and they were allowed to sort of repossess their Holdings because that's really what what it was all about you know they had they were they were as individuals they were forced to live in you know uh poverty and Solace celibacy and obedience the same they were monks they were monks they were just monks that were able to there were also Knights they were able to kill um and so they took those vows of poverty celibacy or abstinence and and obedience poverty Chastity obedience those three

54:19 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Knights of Malta and Templar aftermath

vows so they didn't have any money as individuals but they had a tremendous holding as a group and so it was really the financial stuff that everyone seems to have been after at the time so uh at least in part and so the king of Portugal at the time allowed the Knight Templars to reorganize as this new order and um be reinvested with their uh their financial Holdings and and kind of and you see you see a lot of that um going on so um I mean I'm not 100 certain how nice Malta kind of play into that I know that

54:59 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Knights of Malta and Templar aftermath

there's a lot there again there's a large volume of conspiracy snuff about you know the the ancient you know uh serpent temples or whatever they found in Malta and things like that and and some sort of dark shady [ __ ] that was going on but um you know all of these things traditionally these quasi-monastic or religious um orders of knights you know they they in my own estimation they filled more they fulfilled more political roles than anything else because what you got to remember is that the Vatican or well

55:37 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Knights of Malta and Templar aftermath

the Vatican didn't exist but the the the papacy right the church didn't really have any way to defend itself before then uh at the First Crusade you know Pope basically had to you know he had to be like you know volunteer you'll go to heaven you know and like lady we're like just picking up swords and going to fight he didn't have an army yeah yeah I think I read or heard uh one was like Associated more over time with moving into banking in Venice probably like the Templars and then I

56:11 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Inquisition, Vatican symbolism, and institutional darkness

think Knights of Malta were more like the intelligence apparatus or something along these lens uh kind of of the Vatican I don't know but uh some major things to probably point out are you know the things that happened with the Inquisition to combat what the Roman Catholic Church deemed heretical for individuals who rejected their assumed dictate on Christian doctrine uh you know me personally and contemplating this it kind of arises emotions of repulsed and disgust um you know with a lifetime of

56:45 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Inquisition, Vatican symbolism, and institutional darkness

imprisonment and torture for those of alternate beliefs pretty much and so when I think of the Vatican as a living symbol to me it's it is to a degree charged with particular concentrations of malevolence by virtue of the energetically potent memory that's just encapsulated with within its very walls over time and but maybe that is something that is just because it is such a vast history that it it's a lot more than just that and you know people will always or a lot of people tend to focus and concentrate on the

57:23 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Inquisition, Vatican symbolism, and institutional darkness

darkest or the most native aspects oh yeah so yeah I mean I mean The Borgias how many shows and things like that and books have been written on them why because it's it's it's a Game of Thrones [ __ ] it's [ __ ] entertaining you're not gonna hear about the popes who like ate oatmeal you know like and brushed their horses you know you're not gonna hear about those guys and they may there may have been hundreds of years worth of them you know um you look at look and here's the thing I'm not an apologist

57:50 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Human systems, corruption, and Christ’s message

for Catholicism I'm not because at the end of the day I just understand the the the energetic Dynamics the group psychology the things that go into this stuff anything that humans create will be endowed indelibly with our highest Heights and our lowest lows because they're human and that's the mistake that Catholics make that in my in my opinion right you're putting your faith in a human being you're putting your faith in a human being you know maybe maybe one maybe a small group they're not infallible you

58:26 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Human systems, corruption, and Christ’s message

can't you can't give any group of people you know the car Blanche that infallibility um grants a human being doesn't matter how spiritual they are they still live in here you know and the issue is we see it with bands we see it with corporations anytime something gets big administratively heavy an aggregor is created that serves one purpose its own existence and that's it and then everything else is just a costume it's just a trappings it's how I got here but and that's

59:05 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Human systems, corruption, and Christ’s message

that's essentially what happens time and time and time again and people want to try and change the system you don't change the system system changes you if anything you know you have to get out of the system and that's the whole message of Christ you have to leave the [ __ ] system alone it sucks it's hard there's no other way there's no other way there is no other way you know so that that's that's the whole [ __ ] thing whether you like it or not right because we're

59:34 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Human systems, corruption, and Christ’s message

not we're not we're not Arbiters of of universal law that's not what we get to do in this lifetime you know we we either you either follow the dictates of everything that's around us one way or the other you opt out and Ascend or you play the game and God help you God be with you God bless you you know like that's that's just the way it is and how many Millennia are we gonna sit here and try and you know Point our fingers at systems and institutions Point your finger at yourself you know that's

1:00:09 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Human systems, corruption, and Christ’s message

that's the whole that's the whole message there but you know there's a lot that goes into you know um this idea of the Vatican and the papacy and stuff like that it's like that doesn't represent all Christians you know it doesn't represent all Catholics you know so it's it's it's one of those things but I'm not I'm also I'm not an apologist for it I just understand it for what it is because look at what and I think I might have said this to you I don't

1:00:40 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Human systems, corruption, and Christ’s message

can't remember if if it was in private or or on a podcast but you want to talk about Crusades you want to talk about the Inquisition let's talk for a second about Hiroshima and Nagasaki where we vaporized populations of men women and children we turn them into [ __ ] dust in minutes and religion didn't do that okay so uh it's people it's us it's any time we try and get back in the game you know we just [ __ ] it up because that's we're not here to change the game we're

1:01:12 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Human systems, corruption, and Christ’s message

here to get out yeah yeah that's hilarious one of my first posts on my uh podcast Instagram was an image of Jesus with a quote and it said [ __ ] the system so yeah that's really you know and that's all the thing you know but that's to me that's that's Christ and that's not people want to defang and declaw Christ but when he needed to he whipped the money lenders you know what I'm saying yeah you know he he he used Force when he needed to and typically he railed against hypocrisy that was the

1:01:51 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Human systems, corruption, and Christ’s message

main thing if you look at the Bible that was the thing that like where he just he got set off hypocrisy you know people pretending to be one thing you know pointing their fingers at everything else but themselves yeah and yeah just to be fair and acknowledge the more I guess black pill aspects like in terms of modern day you know it's sort of like this governing body and this uh monarchical nature of this thing this globalist and pre Imperial aspiration to rule Earth essentially this this notion that there's no

1:02:28 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Papal authority, heresy, and religious freedom

salvation outside of the Catholic Church per the Council of Trent uh this Council of Trent that every Pope swears to uphold that contains the condemnation of Heretics as well as uh papal Bulls um being public decrees letters Charters issued by former popes you know calling for uh Kings to kill Heretics and all this sort of thing so the idea of the Pope's Temple power with the belief that he is endowed with the power and authority to rule the governments of All Nation I believe that's included in some

1:03:08 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Papal authority, heresy, and religious freedom

of the documentation that they still to this day uh take their Oaths with um these sort of things are you know completely antithetical to the freedoms that we value in terms of especially like religious freedom and so this Jesuit sort of inclination in this regard towards the destruction of product protestantism and the restoration of the Pope's Supremacy globally so I guess I'm curious like what's your take on all that uh like you know I'm curious like because I know that I think to this day

1:03:44 · Sky Mathis & Ike Baker · Papal authority, heresy, and religious freedom

they still they haven't like eradicated the a lot of those um like papal bulls and these things that are you know still like in the past have called for Kings to kill Heretics and then what they deem as heretical and all of this stuff so I guess that's just a maybe a philosophical question of reformation or or uh probably things that people argue about