0:00 · Unknown · Intro — Mark Stavish and the frame of the conversation

[music] [music] >> All right, welcome to a very special episode of Etheric Academy Sky Mathesis. As always here with Ike Baker and tonight we have the honor and privilege to be in the good company of Mark Stavish. Probably doesn't really need an introduction for anyone who's listening to this. Uh but yeah, if you want to check out his full bio, perhaps you can go check him out at hermeticinstitute.org. Um I'll just highlight a few things in particular. Uh for one, Mark's the

0:41 · Unknown · Intro — Mark Stavish and the frame of the conversation

director of the IHS, aka the Institute of Hermetic Studies, uh where he provides high-quality affordable information for the study and practice of traditional Western esotericism classes, seminars, workshops, all that good stuff. Um and two, if you guys are unaware uh about the Philosophers of Nature funded by Jean Dubuis, you're missing out. Uh part of what makes Mark significant to me personally is that he is a Philosopher of Nature indeed. Uh he served as the director of research for the Occult Research and

1:17 · Unknown · Intro — Mark Stavish and the frame of the conversation

Applications Project of the Philosophers of Nature. And he's a prolific author. He has countless books on esotericism and has been involved in esotericism for over 25 years. Uh so with that being said, here we are and thank you for giving us your time, Mark. It's great to be chatting with you again. >> Oh, thank you very much. I see you're reading from the very very old biography. >> Yeah, it's the old one. >> like uh yeah, it's more like uh what is it? 40 years now, 45 years.

1:46 · Unknown · Intro — Mark Stavish and the frame of the conversation

>> Wow, yeah. >> Um Yeah, it's great to be here. Thank you very much for the invitation. >> So, right out the gate, I just want to ask you uh about the Astral Chapel. That's one That's one thing I just want to get get some insight. >> Oh, well, that's it. That's what we do is some people ask for kind of a psychic mechanism that they can kind of get into and we really avoided that for the longest time. But, I said, "Okay, well, we'll create something."

2:24 · Unknown · Intro — Mark Stavish and the frame of the conversation

Kind of a psychic focal point for the entity and if people want to participate, they can. If they don't want to, then they don't have to. I think that was pretty clear in the the literature that we sent out to the people in the program. Some institutions have these and you know, it's kind of a a mandatory participation or they really hype it a lot to get people involved. For us, it's kind of more low-key. >> It's very intriguing. It's very voluntary. >> Yeah.

2:54 · Unknown · Intro — Mark Stavish and the frame of the conversation

>> Well, it helps you get a sense of a connection. And of course, that's what an egregore is, a sense of connection to the other people involved in the projects or in the program. And that's helpful if you are trying to run a course of study like we are where we're trying to get people to get from a beginning and a middle to an end of a program. Now, of course, people can enroll in our courses at the Institute for Hermetic Studies. They can enroll in them individually cuz that's how we have it set up that way,

3:27 · Unknown · Intro — Mark Stavish and the frame of the conversation

not like a degree program, meaning an order that has, you know, degrees that you go through. You can just sign on wherever you like here. But, if you want to do the entire course of study, there's a a method to it. There's a method to our madness. And with that, if you decide to, there's also something on the other side of the veil, if you want to put it that way. >> Yeah. >> I said that I that I want to bring up actually, is just like you know, you you've spent a really long time

3:58 · Unknown · Intro — Mark Stavish and the frame of the conversation

uh you kind of just uh piggybacking off of this idea of of the Astral Chapel being something that you provided um for community. You've spent a really long time cultivating community and curating community and creating resources for communities. And one of the things that I don't think I've ever asked you is what was the impetus behind that? What not a lot of people decide to step up and and serve communities. Uh what do you consider it part of your you know, spiritual work? What what's

4:33 · Unknown · Intro — Mark Stavish and the frame of the conversation

the impetus behind that? >> Well, what we have to recognize is that a spiritual group is composed of three things, a practice of five. And those three things are the teacher, the teachings, and the community of the faithful, the household of the faithful, those practitioners. And then, of course, if we want to look at the additional two points, it's when they practice and where they practice. Because if you don't practice, then that's it. If you don't have a place to practice,

5:08 · Unknown · Entering the occult path, early searching, and Hermetic orientation

you know, depending on what the practice is, you're you're out of luck. So, you need those five things. And there was a time back in the old days when there was not a lot of material available. And it of course there was, but uh it took time and effort and energy to get. Amazon wasn't around, things didn't drop off at your door. You had to go searching. And you had to learn how to work well with others. And sometime around 2000, maybe five, eight, 10, somewhere in there. The notion of having to work with others

5:52 · Unknown · Entering the occult path, early searching, and Hermetic orientation

disintegrated. So, on one hand, we have all this talk about the age of Aquarius and working together with people. And on the other hand, the spiritual groups who can't have a life expectancy more than 18 months. Cuz they don't know how to get along. So, what I recognized is that the capacity for maturity, spiritual maturity, is completely absent without working with others. Now, we can talk about the notion of the solar practitioner, but that is a myth propagated by publishers who want to sell lots of

6:35 · Unknown · Entering the occult path, early searching, and Hermetic orientation

books. And I don't blame them. And as I've said honestly before, I've written many books, and publishers never once ask you, "Does this work?" They don't. They just ask you how many you can sell. And I'm still in communication with a lot of publishers, but particularly their marketing. The people in marketing contact me to find out what my thoughts are and where things are going. Which was what we're going to talk about here. And you'd be surprised, again, uh I often ask them, I said, "Do you use

7:08 · Unknown · Entering the occult path, early searching, and Hermetic orientation

astrology for any of your decisions?" And the response will be, "We don't have time for that." Well, guess what? You've just told me you don't really believe in this. Now, that's really important for the time and the age we're in, cuz we're going to see that same rule applies to most of the people that I've also talked to in leadership positions in esoteric groups. >> Yeah, I I am I I see a lot of this devolving into a term that I you used, uh the satanic pride of ultimate

7:42 · Unknown · Entering the occult path, early searching, and Hermetic orientation

individualism. >> Mhm. >> And how it's like this whole lone wolf thing really, this sigma as as the kids say, um that archetype is really just a psyop. >> It is because it keeps you from learning how to deal with others. And the reality is there's no such thing as a sole practitioner because you have to learn from someone even if that someone is a book. Now, the problem with learning from a book is that you it can't answer your questions. And it can't hold your nose by the

8:13 · Unknown · Entering the occult path, early searching, and Hermetic orientation

scruff of the neck to where you know, the stink is and where you're doing things really poorly. And in a real teach and we have to understand that the notion of the teacher-student relationship is complex. But we can look at it very simply in two ways. There's the teacher-student, which is what I am for most people. I am a teacher and they are student, which means I inform them about ideas and information. I give them methods. I help them as best I can. But it's really up to them. We may know each other or may just know

8:48 · Unknown · Entering the occult path, early searching, and Hermetic orientation

each other by name or by email address, but it's not a personal intimate relationship. It's a relationship, but it's not intimate. Okay? Now, the other one is the disciple. And disciple, I like that word because it the word means discipline. A person is disciplined and they've shown that they can do what they're told. They can do it without asking a lot of questions. They can analyze their experience and then bring that back for the discussion of the analysis. You know, they they're

9:23 · Unknown · Entering the occult path, early searching, and Hermetic orientation

they're willing to trust the process because they know, you know, they're they have some faith both in it and in in in me as the instructor. Okay? And they know I'll be honest with them about what I am capable and not capable of doing. That's an important part, too. So, that's a more intimate relationship, and that's with a much smaller group of people. But, they select themselves for that through their efforts. You know, and then there's a group of people that is somewhere in between.

9:59 · Unknown · Entering the occult path, early searching, and Hermetic orientation

You know, but you know, you're never quite sure who they are cuz they kind of come and go. You know, it's kind of like, you know, you hear about the 12 disciples, you know, 12 apostles, and then you hear about the 72, and and the 100, you know, you know, it's kind of like in that 72 range. So, so Jesus probably had probably what, probably 20, 25, 30 close disciples really that we can think of. So, any group is really similar to that. And uh those people are then able after intensive training

10:31 · Unknown · Training, method, discipline, and the problem of scattered practice

or help, even if it's just on a single method, by the way. We see a lot of that. It doesn't have to be this complex and encyclopedic knowledge of occultism. Okay? But, through their dedication and their effort and their understanding, they're able to go off and be solo practitioners. It's It's like someone who graduates from school with a PhD. You know, if you've if you've done your work, now you understand the subject matter well enough and the methods involved well enough where you can do

11:03 · Unknown · Training, method, discipline, and the problem of scattered practice

independent research. But, you still then also rely on your peers. You still then come back and rely on other people and on your teachers for help as you go through that. There's still the post-doc process. >> [laughter] >> So, with community, we're trying to really get people to understand that they they will make the most progress learning how to get along well with others and work with others because ultimately and I was just going through some of my great uncle's notes from the '20s and

11:42 · Unknown · Training, method, discipline, and the problem of scattered practice

'30s ultimately if you want to have all of this great cosmic power at your disposal you've got to demonstrate capacity and that is done through service. And we remember hearing about this back in the day, you know, Butler was saying, you know, you would knock at the temple door and why do you wish to learn? In order to serve. And that notion of service which is typical of the Kali Yuga as we would call it is disappearing. So we have an entire generation, at least 20 years worth of students who who don't think not only do

12:22 · Unknown · Training, method, discipline, and the problem of scattered practice

they need to learn from anyone but this stuff is going to work like a technique of throwing a switch devoid of what they bring to it. And at the same time they don't have to be helpful to anyone. In particular anyone they disagree with or don't like. >> Would it be too much of a side note to ask about your great uncle? >> Well, he grew up in um he was born in 1900. His father was a Brauch guy. Not just a common Brauch guy of uh folk magic but well-versed and knowledgeable in the sixth and seventh books of Moses.

12:58 · Unknown · Training, method, discipline, and the problem of scattered practice

That's why when Peterson published his uh rendition of it which is spectacular, he asked me to do the um jacket blurb for it. That's probably the most significant and most influential book in uh American folk magic and even to some degrees Caribbean and parts of African folk magic. Uh that exists. He was a member of quite a few esoteric groups uh his entire life. He died in 1996. And uh he was deeply involved in Rosicrucianism and Martinism. >> You uh you mentioned um uh this sort of tenor

13:45 · Unknown · Training, method, discipline, and the problem of scattered practice

or admonishment to service that is part and parcel with the Kali Yuga. I think a lot of people you know, have heard modern commentators like Joe Rogan and stuff kind of throw that term around. But let's maybe let's maybe zero in um particularly as as this kind of stuff, you know, astrology and and these Eastern timing systems, they fall much more within your wheelhouse. Let's let's let's define the Kali Yuga and some of the things that uh we can expect from it. And do you think

14:21 · Unknown · Training, method, discipline, and the problem of scattered practice

we're actually in it or entering it or anything like that? >> I think, you know, I like the term because it's a very well-defined one. >> Mhm. >> You know, and it defines human behavior. That's why I like it. Uh I also like Steiner's Ahriman principle. But you know, Steiner gets a little difficult. And and you know, when you start throwing that around, it gets a little it it's very easy to get into a very peculiar kind of dualism if you're not careful. >> Mhm.

14:59 · Unknown · Training, method, discipline, and the problem of scattered practice

>> Uh but I I think that's a good principle worth exploring, too. Because it defines what a lot of our experiences are right now. So, when we look at the Kali Yuga, it has to do with the four ages, which you see is a very common theme. We see it in Greek philosophy. Uh we see it in uh many schools of philosophical thought. And it has to do with going from a golden age to the silver age, kind of like a bronze age, and then they say the age of iron. Some call it the age of lead, like in alchemy.

15:31 · Unknown · Alchemy, degradation, purification, and the human spirit

And it just has to do with degradation of human spirituality. It's It's a mythology of the descent. And I believe, you know, many schools of esotericism, particularly modern esotericism, only talk of an evolution. They Evolution is a really a terrible word. Because they What they mean by that is an implied outcome. Like a predetermined planned outcome. And we see that in masonry with the notion of the trestle board and the blueprint and the plan. It's so very concrete that it doesn't leave much room for for

16:16 · Unknown · Alchemy, degradation, purification, and the human spirit

modification or wiggle room. And I think anyone who's actually been ever been involved in building knows that you start out with the plans, but things change a little bit along the way. I have not met a construction project that came in on time and on budget. >> [laughter] >> So, we have to look at it in this way that we have to look at these as a little less concretely. So, when we look at the Kali Yuga, it refers to that time, as as one llama said to me, when we were talking briefly

16:46 · Unknown · Alchemy, degradation, purification, and the human spirit

about it, he said it's kind of like, you know, in the golden age, 90, 95% of the people were involved in spirituality, and everything was easy. It was like that. Now, what that means to us, that was the mental thought. It was a kind of degree of mental purity. So, if you And very few people have met an adept like that. And I have. And it's someone who just It's just pure perception. You know, pure capacity. And then you go to the age of rituals, okay, and temple building and and this

17:20 · Unknown · Alchemy, degradation, purification, and the human spirit

kind of thing. Then we go to where we're at now, where instead of it being 90, 95% involved in spirituality, it's like 5%. You know, it's it's inverted. Now, the idea is that then once you reach this lowest point, various events happen, which are usually catastrophic, and then the pulse the the push or pulse comes, sometimes it's called a solar wind, and humanity moves in its evolutionary arc adaptive arc, which in Martinism would be the path of return. But you have to have that descent

18:02 · Unknown · Alchemy, degradation, purification, and the human spirit

before you could have the return. And we can think of larger cycles and micro cycles. I think that's not a debate worth going into cuz some people argue or are we in the big year or that I don't care about that. I think what we need to look at here is that it's a good term. It helps us look at what's going on right now. And it ties in very well to the notion of Jean Dubuis' initiation of the naked. And it also ties in well to a lot of those many people don't remember them if

18:38 · Unknown · Alchemy, degradation, purification, and the human spirit

they ever heard them at all. You know, in the 70s, 80s, 90s, there was a ton of New Age prophecies and predictions about what things were going to happen and go on. And there were incredibly utopian visions, which we have not seen even come close to materializing, and we've seen incredibly dystopian visions. Okay, which we're more closely seeing to materializing. So, what does that mean to us as [snorts] practitioners, and what how do we adapt to that situation? And that's really what

19:11 · Unknown · Alchemy, degradation, purification, and the human spirit

evolution is. It's the individual organism adapting to their environment. It is not a determined outcome. Otherwise, we'd be Calvinists. >> [laughter] >> There was also a something that you had um pointed out, Fulcanelli's Season of the Apocalypse. I'm I'm not familiar with this. Um but I just thought I was curious to ask you about about this. What it What's that all about? And I'm assuming it has some tie-ins with what we're speaking about. >> Correct. It's basically his alchemical

19:48 · Unknown · Alchemy, degradation, purification, and the human spirit

view of what was happening or what will be happening or is happening. Now, of course, Fulcanelli was written in the '20s. So, that was 100 years ago. And the Season of the Apocalypse, it's a season, it's a period of time. It's not a uh an immediate point. You know, it's in It takes its name from uh the gospel where it says, "No one knows the day and the hour." But that it doesn't say anything about the uh week or the month or the year. And And what that means is is that the

20:23 · Unknown · Inner work, perception, and the difficulty of real transformation

you know, what the farther things are out, the harder it is to be precise, even with astrology. Okay? You can You can really get zero in on some things, but there's still this window of opportunity, this window or season in which things take place. So, the period of revelation is what he would have referred to. And that revelation, of course, is apocalyptic in nature, meaning it reveals, but also in the in the mundane sense of massively destructive. And of course, in alchemy, there's two

20:56 · Unknown · Inner work, perception, and the difficulty of real transformation

ways of purification. One is with water, one is with fire. And we use the biblical notion, of course, that And this would fit for It should fit for Martinists as well. That, of course, in Genesis we see the purification by water with Noah. And Noah, you know, he was there for 40 years building the ark. His neighbors had 40 years to prepare, and we'll talk a little bit about that. They didn't do anything. But then when the water Then when the rains come, they're not doing anything. Then when

21:33 · Unknown · Inner work, perception, and the difficulty of real transformation

the floods come, you know, they're banging on his door. By the same way to sin. Well, you know, the theory then is or the story goes that the next purification is with fire. Now, of course, these have tremendous symbolic elements in terms of internal alchemy and our inner energies, but they also then have a relationship to the external events, to external experiences. So, we're probably in the season of apocalypse. I tie that in, and I wouldn't have said that a while ago. And I've talked to some people who I

22:14 · Unknown · Inner work, perception, and the difficulty of real transformation

really trust about this. And I see I always, you know, I came to the conclusion that you know, if we're in the post-Christian era, then we're probably in the Christian apocalypse. >> So, that's an It's an interesting notion. Go ahead, Sky. >> Well, what else could it be? Because how can you have a Christian can the apocalypse of the Christian gospel take place in the in the in the in the Christian world uh if you're not in the post-Christian era? Because if, you know, they they go hand

22:52 · Unknown · Inner work, perception, and the difficulty of real transformation

in hand. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> I was just curious to s- you know, the question of whether or or we're in the post-Christian age, Maybe it I'd be curious to get your explanation of what characterizes the Christian age itself. I don't know. That's probably like a super loaded question, but maybe you could elucidate however you see fit, but how would you describe you know, in in maybe some brief way what constitutes the Christian age in order to say we're in the post-Christian

23:28 · Unknown · Inner work, perception, and the difficulty of real transformation

age? >> Here's your simple. You look at church attendance. You look at numbers. The numbers are down. I mean, there is some temporary bumps in England in Catholicism because the Anglican Church has become so secularized. You know, it's worthless. It's not the Anglican Church of John of of Arthur Edward Waite. It's not the Anglican Church that, you know, was giving us that wonderful kind of turn a blind eye to the uh occult practices of its alchemist members in the Golden Dawn. It's not

23:58 · Unknown · Inner work, perception, and the difficulty of real transformation

that Anglican Church. It's not that uh country or parish priest who's, you know, involved in naturalist philosophy and folklore, which is just another polite word for magic. No, it's none of that. Pagan magic, I should say. You know, what it is is it just it's a it's a secular political machine. Uh geared towards a very clear political orientation. Now, so that gives us a bump in Catholicism to some degree, probably as a protest movement and because of the immigration issues in the UK. And we

24:36 · Unknown · Inner work, perception, and the difficulty of real transformation

also see a bump in Catholicism in France, which also is experiencing the same thing. Um so, that bump is really a cultural reaction than probably strong devotion. I mean, it's probably a mix. But then that strong devotion is a result of look what's going on around me. Yeah, this is this is becoming untenable. This is unmanageable and untenable. And uh So then you look at the way how many churches have been destroyed over the last few years. How many have just been closed down and sold off?

25:16 · Unknown · Culture, decline, and the loss of symbolic literacy

Uh It's clearly the notion of the role of what we would call the the Christian churches in the culture and the cultures of the West has been seriously degraded. Uh And then you look at what's replacing it. What's replacing it is primarily uh a kind of bizarre religious secularism. Now, that's if that isn't the definition of the way people have interpreted particularly fundamentalist Christians and some uh kind of like evangelical Catholics. Uh I don't know what it is, which is an

26:04 · Unknown · Culture, decline, and the loss of symbolic literacy

interesting point because a lot of them a lot of their predictions on what the future be like were far more I have pointed this out often were far more accurate than what our our new age brethren came up with. And and we need to be honest about these things. >> Yeah. >> But you know, if you if you're not, that's another example of just self-deception. So as these things collapse, which is what we would say is the post-Christian era, then what takes its place in society as in the culture?

26:39 · Unknown · Culture, decline, and the loss of symbolic literacy

And which is important for us as Freemasons or any of our esoteric groups such as Martinism and some of these various Rosicrucian groups and Templarism because where are you going to get your membership from? If you can't call upon what was once fairly common knowledge religiously. I have had professors tell me and they they taught at Catholic schools and they're saying I can't even teach a basic class anymore. These kids come in and they they don't even know basic catechism. >> Yeah.

27:16 · Unknown · Culture, decline, and the loss of symbolic literacy

Yeah, the the standards have um absolutely plummeted and especially in in the religious life of Christianity. I think you know, what we've been seeing is a controlled demolition to some degree of uh of Christianity or at least um uh a willed ignorance towards the uh the repercussion of you know, theological liberties um and innovations and really the secularization of Christianity. Christianity has always been quintessentially magical in a theurgic way. Um you know, I was telling a story the other the

27:57 · Unknown · Culture, decline, and the loss of symbolic literacy

other day. I grew up Roman Catholic. My father's family was Greek Orthodox. I had one grandma who used to use the the censor and the thurible and incantations when you had a high fever and then I had another grandma who used to if I lost my car keys, she'd tell me to pray to St. Anthony. So, there's all sorts of these, you know, things that you just don't see in American Protestantism. You know, there are variations on on that stuff here. They don't even believe in the metaphysical reality of their own

28:26 · Unknown · Culture, decline, and the loss of symbolic literacy

religion. Uh and I think that has for a very long time characterized our descent into the the post-Christian age and and you know, what is left? Well, according to the the New Testament in the age of of Antichristos, which isn't just against Christ, but saying truly I don't I'm going to do this like sans Christ, without Christ in a lot of ways, but something that that you know you had mentioned before and I maybe I get your thoughts on it. Prophecy as cuz we're we're we're dancing around

29:02 · Unknown · Culture, decline, and the loss of symbolic literacy

here. We're talking about a prophecy as warning rather than a deterministic outcome. >> Right. And and I think you know you you said something that was really important there. Uh the churches don't believe it anymore. And if you do believe it, you're considered an extremist. And unfortunately, that does tend to be the case because to be in the world but not of it requires a certain extremism. Whether it be within the various Christian approaches, whether it be within the uh Tibetan approaches,

29:49 · Unknown · Culture, decline, and the loss of symbolic literacy

Taoist approaches, Indian approaches, there are it's acceptable. There it's you know, you're in the world but not of it. We get that, but we don't really have a place for that in the West. We don't really have a place for the wandering a hermit. We used to, but we don't anymore and haven't for too long of a time. And that not believing it comes from failure of example. The clergy failed to provide a good example. That's why they were rejected and I've had this discussion with priests often.

30:31 · Unknown · Religion, clergy, institutions, and living spiritual responsibility

I mean, I I knew quite many of the local clergy here quite well for a while and I could tell you some tremendous horror stories, but uh I won't. All you need to do is look at the Pennsylvania State Attorney General's report from several years ago on church abuse in Pennsylvania. Uh, but with that said, in neo-paganism, in esotericism, in the groups we're in, a lot of the people don't really and particularly Tibetan Buddhism, Western converts, they don't really believe it either

31:09 · Unknown · Religion, clergy, institutions, and living spiritual responsibility

and have replaced political litmus tests. Are you progressive enough as the basis for the measure of one's spirituality. And that's what they use. They use that idea in the both Christianity and Buddhism link here because it's a false understanding of what is compassion. A false understanding of what is generosity. Uh, and with it a degradation of personal strength and power. So, we can see such an excessive emphasis on the Jupiterian powers of the Age of Pisces. The Hesed element uh, that Gevurah has

31:51 · Unknown · Religion, clergy, institutions, and living spiritual responsibility

been ignored. And Gevurah, which is the gatekeeper of that of of creation, is going to come back and do what Gevurah does and that's burn everything to a crisp that isn't working well. So, again, we're back to the notion of the Age of Fire and it's within Mars, Gevurah, within Mars are the seeds of gold. So, if you made for the philosophical stone, within Mars is the seed of gold. So, when we start looking at this, a lot of it becomes quite problematic, especially if we're going to talk about

32:26 · Unknown · Religion, clergy, institutions, and living spiritual responsibility

uh, global climate change. So, there we have the four horsemen of the apocalypse. The four horses are the elemental energies, the destructive qualities of the elemental energies. You know, we would also call them the four sons of Horus if we were dealing with the path, you know, but those elemental energies are out of order and they're going to do what they do to to rebalance things. And that's the same within us. We can see the elemental energies in people right now, the wind element, particularly the air element,

33:05 · Unknown · Religion, clergy, institutions, and living spiritual responsibility

is particularly out of order. And that goes very much in line with the astrological uh situation. It and what is it, Gemini, too? We see so many people are just quite literally losing their minds. >> Yes. Yeah, collective insanity is huge. >> Right. It is and it's and I don't remember I I say this as someone who's worked in in social services, who's dealt with people with mental health issues who, you know, who's seen a lot of I mean, I've really seen a lot of

33:38 · Unknown · Religion, clergy, institutions, and living spiritual responsibility

what we would call obsession and possession. Literally, you know, not as an abstract term, but the real deal. And we're seeing more and more of that. And it's from practitioners or people who claim to be practitioners who claim to be on the path because they've lost the path. They are in the forest of errors. They're not on the path of return. They're so caught up in in the activities of the day that they can't be They are no longer in the world, but not of it. They are overwhelmed by the world.

34:11 · Unknown · Religion, clergy, institutions, and living spiritual responsibility

And they don't know how to extract themselves. And they don't want the help to do what they need to do to to to get in that lifeboat. And that is the description of what would happen with the end of the Kali Yuga. That's the description of the initiation of the Nadir. That's the description of the Christian apocalypse. I'm sure there's a few other that's a description of the uh you know, at least the Tibetan and the Indian version of the Kali Yuga. So, you know, take your pick.

34:47 · Unknown · Religion, clergy, institutions, and living spiritual responsibility

And there's probably a few new age groups I've forgotten that said something 20, 30, 40 years ago that that fits, too. >> I have something I really want to ask you, Mark. I'm curious how you respond. So, when it comes to Christ and what Christ represents, uh you know, being that names or symbols are indicative of the thing, but they're not the thing. Often, they're just the labels that we put on the archetypes that inevitably manifest in different epochs. Is Christ to you an archetype that

35:24 · Unknown · Crisis, descent, and recurring esoteric patterns

manifests in different epochs, say like Mercury is to Hermes is to Thoth or something like this and manifests in different epochs under different names? You know, Christ descending like a dove. Uh do you view that as a unique case or one that's like a is like a one-and-done situation or do you see that as an example of like an archetypal thing being embodied that can happen for anyone? How do you look at the meaning and the message behind Christ and what Christ represents? >> Well, you know, when the Holy Spirit is

35:55 · Unknown · Crisis, descent, and recurring esoteric patterns

what descended as a dove, and the Holy Spirit is important because what we're looking at there is that is derived from the Babylonian captivity. Most of the Judeo-Christian ideas of metaphysics, angelology, demonology from the Babylonian period. And that Holy Spirit would have been the Holy Creative Spirit, okay, the embodiment of these seven, sometimes defined as seven energies, but this Holy Creative Power. And um I have a book over here. I'll see if I can pull it off the shelf. It has to do

36:26 · Unknown · Crisis, descent, and recurring esoteric patterns

with uh um the notion of possession in early Christianity. And this idea of being possessed by the spirit. And instead of buying by a singular spirit, you're possessed by the spirit of the big god, the biggest spirit there is. And this is a very interesting notion, by the way, uh because uh how does one identify with the spirit as it's something separate from us? Or is it this powerful creative impulse? Uh what is this that's happening? So, these archetypes are always around us. They're always unfolding and being

37:04 · Unknown · Crisis, descent, and recurring esoteric patterns

expressed in a variety of different ways. Uh however, we have to look at them as not abstract ideas in some kind of weird Union sense. And that's modern Unions, really. They they don't want them to become concrete. But even within the magical systems, they do that by too much emphasis on symbology rather than on how do I experience this inwardly? And that's the problem of excessive ritual work. Is excessive ritual work is always out there rather than how does that relate to me in here?

37:35 · Unknown · Crisis, descent, and recurring esoteric patterns

Even if you have a good, we'll call it, map of the metaphysical anatomy. Or or even a relatively poor map of metaphysical anatomy, like the attributions of the Hebrew letters in the Sefer Yetzirah, as they go to the organs and to the head. But you can still work with them, you know, in a sense, and how these energies are working inwardly on me and then externally, too. And that goes back to the question about prophecy. You know, prophecy is like a weather report. It's meant to give you a

38:08 · Unknown · Crisis, descent, and recurring esoteric patterns

heads-up of how these external forces are going to impact you internally and personally, so that you can make accommodations for it. And you know, very few people listen. So, in the age of Noah, and and a few people in his family listened, a few other people, then they're the only ones left. And I don't don't want to take that too literally, whether there was a great flood or not I'm not really concerned about, but it's the idea that we're trying to get through here. We don't want to take our symbols too

38:39 · Unknown · Crisis, descent, and recurring esoteric patterns

concretely, but we don't want to take them too abstractly either. They're a tool, a language, a mechanism to an end, and that end is experiential. It's like when I say to the, you know, when I go to the nice cafe and I say to the waitress, you know, bring me a cup of coffee, please. And she brings me a cup of coffee. The coffee is the experience. Now, her smile may be part of it, too, but the coffee is the experience. You know, not the word. Yeah. >> Yeah. Thing is it's also interesting, this

39:16 · Unknown · Crisis, descent, and recurring esoteric patterns

idea of the Holy Spirit. Not to get just to get too sidetracked, but I uh one of my >> I think it's important because the the spirit, the dove, is the the language of the birds. >> Yes. Yeah, and and the thing is, too, you know, in the in the um uh the tradition of prayer, the Judeo-Christian tradition of prayer, we have the prayer for the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit, um which again, you know, that number seven uh being really, really um really important. And I'm glad that you

39:47 · Unknown · Crisis, descent, and recurring esoteric patterns

brought up that, you know, like Christ didn't descend as a dove. The the the dove, the Holy Spirit, descended into him like a dove. And that from the really from that particularly if you're thinking of like the the Basilidians and some of the the early Christian sects, it's actually when they celebrated the incarnation of Christ. >> That's when he became Christ. >> That's when he became Christ. Exactly. >> Yeah. Well, as I say, the same notes that I was looking through earlier. My uncle

40:17 · Unknown · Sacrifice, self-overcoming, and the deeper work of initiation

had my great uncle had extensive commentaries on that and practices evolved around that. How does one incarnate that power? How does one recognize that? And they're really pretty straightforward meditation practices. Um Yeah, you see that involves a kind of sacrifice of self. Sacrifice meaning um And I I want to use the terms maybe from the Indian systems. And of course, this is what I had experienced and was extensively taught. You know, the ego is a very good tool for dealing in this world.

40:55 · Unknown · Sacrifice, self-overcoming, and the deeper work of initiation

My sense of self is very important for what's happening around me and how we are engaging. Um I need to have it otherwise well, you know, we just get taken advantage of or we get walked over and bad things happen to us. But that sense of self is a very very bad tool for the inner world. And how we look at the composition of the principal parts of mind and consciousness, at least using the maybe the systems of Patanjali, is really very very simple and very direct and is very helpful. Because anybody can work with it at any

41:35 · Unknown · Sacrifice, self-overcoming, and the deeper work of initiation

time. But one of the ways to look at it is that when you pray, and you turn inward, and you are praying to the deepest part of yourself. Now, some may pray to God or some external deity, but you still as you pray to the deepest part of yourself. That's training the ego, this outer self, the center part of me that is always dealing with the world, to turn inward and submit. Submit means to you know, we say uh in alchemy, they sometimes refer to the greater king and the lesser king. You know, the lesser king gets off the

42:17 · Unknown · Sacrifice, self-overcoming, and the deeper work of initiation

throne so the greater king can sit there. Uh, that language I don't really like too much, but I want to share it with you. But it's just basically a way of me saying, "I'm going to put my eye down of what I think I am and who I think I am for now and what I think I know. I'm going to let all that go. I'm going to relax. My very narrow limited sense of self, no matter how grand I may be or think I am, I'm going to let that go. And I'm going to open up to this possibility that in me is something even

42:53 · Unknown · Sacrifice, self-overcoming, and the deeper work of initiation

greater and let that take over. Ask it to take over. Invite it in. Now, that's the part. It's the invitation. You have to invite it. So, we talk about possession. Possession is always voluntary. There's no such thing as involuntary possession, no matter what people say. They always have to play a part in the in the story, even if they don't want to admit to it. And you can imagine how many times I've had to say to people, "Why are you lying to me? I know you're lying."

43:20 · Unknown · Sacrifice, self-overcoming, and the deeper work of initiation

>> Well, a lot of times a lot of times, too, those those types of people lie are lying to themselves. >> Yeah. Well, that's it. So, when we do the inner work, that's the sub- that's and I don't like the word subjugation or surrender or all this stuff. I like the word relaxing. We're relaxing our sense of self to open up to a greater potentiality of sense of self, that power within us. And it is truly a power. It's a creative power. But we don't think of virtues anymore,

43:55 · Unknown · Sacrifice, self-overcoming, and the deeper work of initiation

although we have them on the tree of life. Heaven forbid we should really talk about them too much. But the virtue, of course, comes from the root word for virility or power. And it also means that in that spiritual undertaking that is the charisma or the city siddha that you know that you would accomplish the accomplishment brings this power which is inherent wisdom. It's not just an it's an authority and a wisdom and an insight and an ability all at the same time. It's all wrapped up. It's very you can't

44:28 · Unknown · Sacrifice, self-overcoming, and the deeper work of initiation

really separate them out. >> In regards to like this notion of the end times kind of looking at it through like an esoteric lens entering into this sort of alchemical crucible stage you know you're trying to if you're trying to like trajectory map the zeitgeist looking out at the potencies and propensities and competing interests and aggregors and kind of use some pattern recognition and try to find out like what's emerging. I think you know looking at where things are going it's definitely pretty clear that

45:06 · Unknown · Aquarius, astrology, and cycles of cultural transition

we are in the midst of some kind of rapid transformation on like a multitude of levels and to be honest I've been kind of just like getting this sense that I'm needing to prepare for something and one thing Icke always says that I I love is the way out is the way through and this comes to mind often when I'm thinking about this kind of stuff and when I recently watched your excellent piece that you did on Pluto and Aquarius and what really stood out to me was the notion of strength and how

45:40 · Unknown · Aquarius, astrology, and cycles of cultural transition

we're at this like slippery slope where we're mistaking weakness as a virtue and you're like emphasizing the point weakness is not a virtue and so yeah I wanted to bring that up cuz you're just talking about virtues and it it's something that stood out to me and what I had recently listened to you and I think it's important to cultivate strength uh you know during this time in particular at least for myself. >> Well, yes, because if we look at, you know, what is the

46:16 · Unknown · Aquarius, astrology, and cycles of cultural transition

definition of enlightenment, we can say illumination is not is being free of your habituated patterns. At the very basic very basic level, you're you're free of habituated patterns. And on another level, it has a certainty or equilibrium. Um and that's one of the problems of those who experience that kind of equilibrium of what we we often would call Tiphereth. I'd experience there. And that experience is such that it can be very difficult to move out of. And it requires a great deal of energy

47:01 · Unknown · Aquarius, astrology, and cycles of cultural transition

to move off it. That's why what do you move off it? It's by integrating your energies of strength of Geburah. Activity, action, transformation. How do you take that equilibrium and now work with it in the world? And at the same time, you're working with these other energies too, but we we tend to think of them singularly so we can digest them. That's what we call path working. And of course, it's opposite or its complementary part is Chesed, which is kind of the vision of the plan.

47:34 · Unknown · Aquarius, astrology, and cycles of cultural transition

You know, what what are you doing this for? What's the purpose of it all? And um and of course, uh we have the great crown of Saturn up there and a few other ones waiting to ask us some questions. But with that, um we have to look at that strength as it's acquired. It is acquired and it is required of us. And I've had several I remember several people saying to me very often, "Remember, don't stop. You have you know, when the experience comes, you have to go push it. Push it to Geburah."

48:20 · Unknown · Aquarius, astrology, and cycles of cultural transition

And that's a very demanding experience of us. I think that's the other part. You know, since we're coming up on Easter, many people say they want to be an adept, but you know, you only get to Tiphereth by going through hell and dying and letting everything behind. Those are the three paths to it. There are no others. >> Yeah. And that that would that exchange of the greater and lesser king happens there in Tiphereth where you you you know, to me it's it's almost like the the painting on the

48:58 · Unknown · Aquarius, astrology, and cycles of cultural transition

the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel where you know, Adam is reaching out to God. You know, somewhat nonchalantly. God is is is just extending himself downward with the host of angels with the greatest sense of urgency. Um and that that death is actually you we think of death, we think of a sort of katabasis, right? An underworld experience. But in reality, as the tree of life diagrammatically shows us, we're actually traveling upward um and and and reaching up towards um the ineffable, uh which once we achieve what you're

49:36 · Unknown · Aquarius, astrology, and cycles of cultural transition

saying, this death in Tiphereth, this exchange of the lesser life for the greater, um what we are reaching towards starts reaching downward. And it's this intermediary point where the the this kind of union happens. And again, to me that is all another way of sort of conceiving of the descent of the Holy Spirit. Um So, that's that's just something that kind of came to to my mind that I think listeners can benefit from because you can't you know, I'm not sure that most people

50:15 · Unknown · Practical wisdom, nightly reflection, and spiritual integration

know anything about what they claim to be doing. >> But to to kind of answer the the sky's question too and and to comment on yours, piggyback on that, you know, my great uncle used to say, you know, we we have to do 50% of the work. And maybe sometimes 49. If we're really really good, 48. Uh but we've got to do at least 50% of the work. And then the rest will will meet us halfway. You know, the gods help those who help themselves. It's very important. The gods help those who help themselves. You have to develop

50:48 · Unknown · Practical wisdom, nightly reflection, and spiritual integration

your dedication and your willpower, your your perseverance in all of this. And I've seen a lot of commentary by different people in the the community who are they're talking about how terrified they are and how broken they are. And these are these are not the words of adepts. Not in the least. Uh you should not pay a single attention to a single a single thing they say if that's what they're bringing to you. You have to have courage. You have to have strength. You have to have uh

51:22 · Unknown · Practical wisdom, nightly reflection, and spiritual integration

generosity. You know, and uh goodwill. That's what you have to have. And you know, you're talking you're asking about the the kind of apocalyptic visionary stuff. I You know, this is this is it. I mean, that's that's the separating of the wheat from the chaff. And and you see Jesus is saying in the course in the vision, it is a visionary experience of John. And uh I mean, it has probably at least four levels to it, which is a good thing, you know, at least four, but one of them is

52:06 · Unknown · Practical wisdom, nightly reflection, and spiritual integration

says, you know, I would rather thee be hot or cold, but I spit thee out, you know, lukewarm. And how often haven't we run into people that just I tell them, "Get out of here." You just uh you're you're not really committed to anything. I wish you were committed to something. I don't care what that is. Just go be good at something. If you're going to be a thief, be the best thief you can. >> [laughter] >> Okay? Cuz at least so when you get caught and you go to jail, you're going

52:31 · Unknown · Practical wisdom, nightly reflection, and spiritual integration

to be the best thief you could be. You know? You know, if you're going to do it, be the best at it. But there's not even that. There's not that even commitment to being the best at something. You want to spend your time playing Warhammer? Great. Be the best painter there is. Yeah? Be the best diorama maker there is. That's just I mean, because the time and the resources, the mental resources, the skill set put into that transfers over to other things that you do when you decide to do it.

53:14 · Unknown · Practical wisdom, nightly reflection, and spiritual integration

Now, that's another reason I say we're in the age of the season of the apocalypse is we're losing the capacity to train initiates. Forget about adepts, initiates. We're losing the capacity. And not just within the systems, but also because the people don't have the capacity. You know, my wife was at a meeting, a a conference, and the director who reports the national director said, "Are the s- that we're dealing with are you finding that they have shorter and shorter attention spans?

53:52 · Unknown · Practical wisdom, nightly reflection, and spiritual integration

They they're it's harder to get them to do what Now, this is science we're talking about, okay? And she said, "Yeah, we noticed that." Uh we noticed that maybe about 10 years ago, but you still had people who had it, the arc was there. But pre-COVID it was very apparent, and then COVID just accelerated it. So, we have a generation. And remember, we're only one generation away from illiteracy. It's all it takes. So, the capacity to train people is even more difficult.

54:25 · Unknown · Practical wisdom, nightly reflection, and spiritual integration

Because you need mental ability, you need the ability to concentrate, the ability to focus, the ability to relax. So, a lot of the work we do is really very remedial compared to what it was 30 years ago. So, we have more information. I said, "We're very good at products, podcasts, and uh publishing." We're excellent at that. We've excelled at it beyond what I could have imagined 30 years ago, let alone even 10. I've no idea what I went through. None. Okay? And yet all that's out there, but we're not

55:03 · Unknown · Shakespearean imagery, Hell emptied, and the modern psychic landscape

really better for it. Because if you look at a lot of the emphasis, again, the emphasis too indicates an obsession with a lot of those Plutonian things we talked about. Um very underworld stuff, which is kind of interesting in its own right, but there seems to be a peculiar obsession with uh demonology and demonolatry and Goetia. A peculiar obsession with it. >> Yeah, I I I I err on the side of Shakespeare. Hell is empty, the devils are here. >> Yeah. Now, wait, this is something that was

55:39 · Unknown · Shakespearean imagery, Hell emptied, and the modern psychic landscape

said to me earlier today in a conversation with uh um someone you would all know. And we're talking about some geopolitical stuff, so withhold the name because of their expertise in that area. But also said, "You know, I'm thinking that in the age of Aquarius because of the role of Saturn and the technological stuff that we're talking about, but because it's mental, it's very airy. And you know, we talk about spirits of air. Is there a They're the energies we call the the energies

56:29 · Unknown · Shakespearean imagery, Hell emptied, and the modern psychic landscape

uh the pranic force is often referred to as an air of the sort. A plasma, really. Kind of a plasma. Uh I think that those entities might be able to self-manifest more easily. And I'm thinking, you know, we're just So, we're talk thinking out loud that in the past, you might have to do a lot more ritual work to try and get them. Now, they do it guest appearances. And I'm not saying one thing or the other on it, but it's just I'm sharing it with you as a point of consideration.

57:06 · Unknown · Shakespearean imagery, Hell emptied, and the modern psychic landscape

>> It's fascinating. I had a conversation with David Rankin. He's releasing his next book uh Clavis Spirituum. He just did the Clavis Intellegentiarum, which is outstanding. Uh because David works in a in a much a much more safe milieu. If you're going to do uh evocation, he's doing Solomonically using a lot of Christian sort of sacramentary and and and and formulas and things like that. Um So, one of the things that he had kind of discovered or rediscovered was this invocation of the winds. And he had me

57:43 · Unknown · Shakespearean imagery, Hell emptied, and the modern psychic landscape

do me and a couple of other people who were a little bit more, you know, practiced. Um he had me kind of experiment with this. I was already going to do a particular working in connection with something. And he said he he had been having incredible success. Sometimes when you do evocation or conjuration, standing there for for sometimes over 2 hours trying to do these calls and get get some sort of manifestation. Um and he said this inclusion of the of the the calling in of the winds seems to bring these

58:18 · Unknown · Shakespearean imagery, Hell emptied, and the modern psychic landscape

spirits almost instantaneously. And, you know, speaking for my for myself, you know, I I wrote a report. He he, you know, I don't know if he's going to include it in the book. But, um I've never had something appear in a scrying mirror that quickly. It was almost I was I was about two-thirds through the the the the invocation. So, I that that kind of had all sorts of bells ringing for me when you're talking about this ease of appearance of certain spiritual entities in this this time of of wind

58:47 · Unknown · Shakespearean imagery, Hell emptied, and the modern psychic landscape

and ether. It's very interesting stuff. >> Well, particular with the astrological conditions now and, you know, what did I say? Gemini. Which you're going to go on for about What is it? 15 years or so? But, you know, the thing about the winds too, the winds are the first is the the the the the wind is the uh the first principle of life. It's the principle of awareness. So, the winds are not an external force. They're an internal force in your That's the That's really what we're looking at

59:15 · Unknown · Shakespearean imagery, Hell emptied, and the modern psychic landscape

when you see the the the chaos of Kodesh. Akasha. Those are the That's it. That's the the the energies which we will call the winds or later call the winds. You know, and then they become the the king the the kings of Tiphereth the the principal leaders of the elements the elemental energies and then you know, the cherubim the the energies that we call at uh at uh Yesod. However, you want to put them in there, but that's you're you're you're dialing into the the energies of

59:49 · Unknown · Shakespearean imagery, Hell emptied, and the modern psychic landscape

wind and John was pretty clear on that. He always said the problem you had with Enochian was that it was a uh a system of air. Air, a i r right? The elemental. Like alchemy is a system of fire. >> Mhm. >> Okay. Ritual magic generally speaking symbolic to requires a lot of emotional input. It's more of a system of water. Okay. Just so so listeners understand the designations. And you know, he said that begin it's vocal too. By the way, it's vocalization. Vocalization is always

1:00:19 · Unknown · Mind, imagination, and the capacity for inner formation

air. And in terms of how it works on the energy structure. So, because it's such a vocalization intensive system uh it has the capacity to really in his mind and from his experience with people to disrupt people's energetic structures pretty easily. So, we have all these folks saying that how safe Enochian is. Yet at the same time I'm seeing a lot of the people who worked with it I'm not seeing that in their lives. And you know, that sometimes things tend to go south. >> Oh, yeah.

1:00:59 · Unknown · Mind, imagination, and the capacity for inner formation

>> Um yet at the same time what they call an effective system is to doing with speed. The speed with which something occurs or manifestation occurs. So, that tied to what you said about the speed of this invocation of the winds. >> Mhm. >> You know. >> Yeah. >> So, these these winds tied back to the direct root of life itself. >> Yeah, I I and I will agree with you for just for the listeners to get that on record. Uh even as somebody still in the the the Golden Dawn system, I'm not a

1:01:40 · Unknown · Mind, imagination, and the capacity for inner formation

fan of Enochian. I I've it's I'm not going to go too deep into it. We've Sky and I have done episodes where I've talked a little bit about it and the phenomenology of it and um particularly the way the Golden the modern Golden Dawn uses it, but uh there's definitely a dissociative component and a there is something there that that uh seems to fascinate people and it might be this the speed that you're talking about, the speed of this efficacy. There's something that that seems to

1:02:12 · Unknown · Mind, imagination, and the capacity for inner formation

fascinate right {quote} {unquote} adepts um to the point where they're really willing to ignore massive red flags. >> Well, Dee did. He ignored a ton a ton of red flags. I mean, that should be a red flag for the rest of us. And again, getting back to some of the discussion, you know, Enochian was essentially an apocalyptic system in this uh meant to bring about the uh uh you know, the second coming if it could in some way trigger that, which means you have to trigger the uh the Antichrist first or whatever,

1:02:45 · Unknown · Mind, imagination, and the capacity for inner formation

however you want to look at it. Uh that fascination with Enochian, of course, too, even in popular culture as we see it is is another kind of uh sign or signal, if you will, as to orientation. You know, you have to learn to how to read the symbols, not just in terms of some gematria and notariqon that makes you crazy. But how do you see them in real life? How is that archetype that you're talking about earlier? How is that archetype incarnating right now in front of you in real life? And that archetype is also incarnating

1:03:19 · Unknown · Mind, imagination, and the capacity for inner formation

you know, as you could say in design. Like in masonry, we talk about the structures and uh harmony. Like in music is an incarnation of archetype. Because music, different types of music allow us to uh tune ourselves emotionally to some of the energies of the different planets. Jamie did a fantastic example of that at last year's conference. When he uh was playing uh various musical excerpts. But also the layout of your room. What is the emotional impression? You know, it doesn't stop there. It

1:03:54 · Unknown · Mind, imagination, and the capacity for inner formation

takes you back further. It links you to something possibly other. What is the emotional impression? And so then we talk about feng shui or design from monious design, orderly design. So, when we talk about archetypes incarnating, we have to start with where we're at on a very practical level and and get out of this very occultish view uh that we see in uh Gematria and all Terracon and and and and all this kind of dream analysis, all this kind of stuff. Start with where you're at. What is the archetypal energy

1:04:31 · Unknown · Mind, imagination, and the capacity for inner formation

at play and then you're able to read the signs. The portends, if you will. Then you're really able to read them. >> You know, this is kind of abstract, but speaking of entities, might being able to manifest more easily and winds and whatnot. Mark, you were you were speaking about this phenomena of dead air. Um like this kind of like like a contaminated pocket of like a putrid air where it's just kind of lifeless. And when you were talking about that in your the lecture that you did

1:05:11 · Unknown · Absence of life, environment, and the need for living tradition

it was like it just kind of gave me this like a pop apocalyptic sort of vision came to my mind and then when you guys were speaking about the entities being able to manifest in this case probably not ideal entities being able to dwell in this sort of uh uh absent of life sort of environment that's being created and dwell bubbling up I guess at this time. And so yeah, I just wanted to throw that out there cuz that kind of made me think about that. It was really interesting. >> Yeah, and the presentation was the one

1:05:51 · Unknown · Absence of life, environment, and the need for living tradition

we did with the Institute for Vedic Studies Pluto and Aquarius 2025 and beyond. And you know, we we talked about a lot of this stuff and and predictions going out about 25-30 years. And you know, I was really kind of stunned too even after we did that how quickly this stuff was appearing in the news and I know I sent out some emails saying remember we talked about this and here it is. We talked about this and here it is because if you don't remind people they don't really notice it. They

1:06:17 · Unknown · Absence of life, environment, and the need for living tradition

don't really recognize it because at the end of the day a lot of people don't really believe it. So it's not just that the churches don't believe what they're saying in many of them but even within our circles they don't really believe it. And you know, sometimes even when they do maybe it's all for the wrong reasons. You know, you but you you do we believe that there is this capacity of consciousness to interact between various dimensions if you want to call it that?

1:06:52 · Unknown · Absence of life, environment, and the need for living tradition

And what does that mean in reality? And what other than consciousness entities out there what other sentient beings to use that term are out there that we engage with? And what environments do they thrive in? You know, I don't particularly thrive in a pile of pig But worms and bugs apparently do. You know, I don't thrive, you know, underwater. But apparently fish and a whole bunch of other things do. So, part of this is getting out of our very limited human understanding of things. And expanding and opening that.

1:07:46 · Unknown · Absence of life, environment, and the need for living tradition

We're opening it up to what we call something higher. Higher means basically of a broader perspective, a wider range, a more inclusive view. So, we think of that as angels, archangels, adept eye, unknown superiors, superior, uh, you know, uh, saints, that type of thing. But on the other hand, they require to be invited. We must invite them in. Now, maybe they can step in on their own. Maybe some of them can. I'm not going to say they can't or don't. But it's best that we invite them in if

1:08:23 · Unknown · Absence of life, environment, and the need for living tradition

we want to have a relationship with them. And to do that, we have to create an environment first in ourselves that's inviting, the proper attitude. And hopefully an environment externally, and that's where ritual comes into play. You keep your environment clean and neat, no matter what it is, whether it's very elaborate or very simple. You keep it clean and neat. Now, on the other hand, what seems to thrive in that which is dirty and messy, but those beings which tend to be chaotic.

1:08:56 · Unknown · Absence of life, environment, and the need for living tradition

Or maybe a little uncertain for you. Saturn doesn't mind the dirt, but you know, you got to have a lot of tenacity to deal with that. That's a that's a tough one. You got to have a lot of humility and be willing to bear that. So, when we look at these other entities, uh just as we can create a beautiful environment that by its very existence becomes a suitable home or dwelling place for that which is beautiful and harmonious, we can also accidentally unconsciously create an environment that is very

1:09:35 · Unknown · Absence of life, environment, and the need for living tradition

conducive to some very destructive and hostile uh spiritual beings in our world. A gateway for them. >> Yeah. And they you you typically will know when they're you'll know their presence by the level of chaos your life devolves into. Um >> Well, and that's an important point. You know, as as Eliphas Levi said something to the same thing. You know, we we don't notice the good guys, I'm paraphrasing here, because everything's harmonious, but we certainly notice the bad ones.

1:10:07 · Unknown · Thought-forms, exposure, and the formation of subtle influence

And I remember not too long ago I had a conversation with a fellow who we were on the Zoom just like this, and we were done. And I said, "Well, what what are we talking about? Why do you want to really talk to me? Ask me the real question. Why are we really here?" And he said, "Well, you know, you you familiar with the CERN?" I said, "Yeah, I'm I'm familiar with it." And this guy uh he was uh PhD a firm you would all recognize. Every one of you know the name.

1:10:45 · Unknown · Thought-forms, exposure, and the formation of subtle influence

Uh director of research, former director of research. And he called me cuz he said it was under the idea that he was writing a second book or third book or something. And I said, "Sure, we'll talk." And after we're done, I said, "Well, he's talking about the CERN, I said, "Well, you know, you do the research." He said, "I'm I've heard of it. I don't really know what understand a lot of physicists." He said, "Is it possible to pull something through?"

1:11:10 · Unknown · Thought-forms, exposure, and the formation of subtle influence

I said, and he was clearly nervous. He was clearly upset about it. You know, I said, "Well, were you trying to put something over there to begin with?" Yeah, I'm kind of joking with him. And I said, uh, "Well, here's the problem. Yes, it is, and by the time you found out, it would be too late, and you don't have a mechanism to send it back." I said, "What you guys are doing is you know, it's like a friend of mine who was a IQ matter. Uh, he's an engineer. He's out there

1:11:47 · Unknown · Thought-forms, exposure, and the formation of subtle influence

watching a rocket in South America. And after it's over, he he goes for a little walk, and the guy says to him, "Stay on the trail." Well, stay on the trail. And then he suddenly realizes he's on the trail, and everything's quiet. Suddenly he realized, "You know, I'm in a jungle. Everything here wants to eat me." And and that's something that we've really lost that sense of that nature can be dangerous and threatening. And that's part of this notion that

1:12:21 · Unknown · Thought-forms, exposure, and the formation of subtle influence

we're going to have a safe initiatic environment. Your initiation by its very nature is not safe. By its very nature, it is going to disrupt you. Because that's the only way to rebuild you. >> Yeah. >> So, we've got all these ideas in place that are fundamentally counter-initiatic. And and not just counter-initiatic in the ideation sense, but actively destructive in that they ally themselves with aspects of the invisible that are not in our best interest. >> Mhm. >> And I think one of the best examples of

1:13:03 · Unknown · Thought-forms, exposure, and the formation of subtle influence

that is maybe during COVID when the term conspiracy theory was thrown around so wonderfully and you saw different occultists who refrain from naming talking in these very derogatory terms. And I said, "Well, let me just say so. I just want to point this out. Do you remember when there was a time and a cultist would talk about the unknown superiors and the great white brotherhood and this great cosmic hierarchy and bureaucracy with angels and everything all designed to kind of work its way through the either and then

1:13:39 · Unknown · Thought-forms, exposure, and the formation of subtle influence

come in contact with human beings and that these human beings and their different organizations or individual activities or different groups were all working to bring humanity to the lights. And then on the other side was the great the black brotherhood of the evil brethren of the left hand path who are supposed to be doing the exact opposite. They were coming down and trying to get people Now, we're all about conspiracy. >> [laughter] >> Yeah. >> That's what we are. >> Yeah, I I try and I I I try

1:14:15 · Unknown · Thought-forms, exposure, and the formation of subtle influence

[clears throat] and convey it, you know, I I'll talk to some people and uh even even it's particularly the idea of metaphysical evil and and and people needing to to rationalize things like uh Satanism and or it's like, "Oh, you know, they're just atheists with a sense of humor." That might be what some of them think they're doing, but that's it there's there's a far greater consequences and you know, if we get together and we put on these robes and these silly hats and these these

1:14:44 · Unknown · Thought-forms, exposure, and the formation of subtle influence

colorful it was it's almost like uh it like we pulled this out of a a daycare some of these tools with the the colors and the shapes. And we get together and we do these organized rituals that were written like uh over 100 years ago for the purposes of of equilibrium. How much of a stretch is it to think that there are people doing the same thing for the opposite cause? You know, it's it it it doesn't seem like such a stretch. >> One of the things I noticed at that time too was it really struck me is that a

1:15:16 · Unknown · Discernment, symbolic pollution, and the practitioner’s responsibility

lot of these people were talking. They only understood magic if it appeared in a ritual form. They had no understanding of real operative magic in a non-ritualistic sense. They because they were never exposed to it. They probably never seen it. So, to them if it didn't have pentagrams and hexagrams or some variation of a clearly identified ritual purpose, to them that wasn't magic. And because he just and that was clear. And this goes into the role of a culture. What is the role of the occult

1:15:59 · Unknown · Discernment, symbolic pollution, and the practitioner’s responsibility

or the degradation of occult symbols turning it into pop culture entertainment symbols only. And not really understanding that maybe there's something else at work here particularly when people are you know getting themselves uh tattooed with uh sigils and everything. You have to be that I said to someone once and this that always gets them offended and really don't care. And I said, "Well, you know, it feeds off the blood." So, what can I say? Every seven every seven minutes you feed it.

1:16:42 · Unknown · Discernment, symbolic pollution, and the practitioner’s responsibility

Because that's how the invisible sees you. So when you light up to whatever degree you light up, that is part of the imagery of how you're seen in the invisible. So I know people who will never do permanent ones. They always do uh ones that they need at the moment. You you know, that can be washed off or cleaned up later on for that reason. >> Interesting. So my question is um we've talked a bit about you know, the Kali Yuga and the unpreparedness in general uh of people in our communities um

1:17:30 · Unknown · Discernment, symbolic pollution, and the practitioner’s responsibility

and people in general. What how do we go forward from here? I mean, I know you've offered a wealth of material that that can can you know, listeners and and consumers can glean many helpful insights. But what's the long and short of it? How do we how do we move forward from here? I think this is really simple. You have to first recognize that we're entering into a time of tremendous difficulty. Uh what we're going to see and this is and people who keep blaming someone for it have to stop that. This is this is

1:18:08 · Unknown · Discernment, symbolic pollution, and the practitioner’s responsibility

just you have to accept the reality of you're entering into. There is going to be a profound decoupling of globalism. Now, there are some wonderful possible benefits that may come from that. I'm not going to talk about them because um I want people to pay attention to what I'm saying, okay? And there's also going to be tremendous difficulties that come from that. How that pans out in the long run, we're going to have to wait and see. Okay? But we can also play a role in that.

1:18:40 · Unknown · Discernment, symbolic pollution, and the practitioner’s responsibility

Okay, in terms of what we can bring to the table. Decoupling is decoupling of globalism means things are going to get very local and very expensive. That's the short of it. You're going to have to have friends. You're going to have to have skills. Work on those. But at the same time, within the framework of esotericism, it could mean profound anything from minor disruption on the civil scale to civil war. Now, here not so much. I know a lot of people like to think of civil war in the

1:19:12 · Unknown · Discernment, symbolic pollution, and the practitioner’s responsibility

United States. We're probably not going to see that, even though there's a lot of people who really have a a real juice on for that. Um we're going to see more of what we call like '70s style terrorism. And for people who don't know what that means, that's kind of a low-level violence that you see with the damaging of the Tesla dealerships, the torching of the governor's mansion in Pennsylvania, uh the kid who killed his parents to finance his revolution. That kind of That was

1:19:48 · Unknown · Discernment, symbolic pollution, and the practitioner’s responsibility

probably more of a under the guise of it, but that was kind of a possession obsession phenomena there. With his last his whatever satanic ritual self-styled satanic ritual he's doing. Yeah, and there's going to be people who ignore that in the community because they're going to just ignore that, but they need to pay attention to it. But that's part of that phenomena. Mostly it's going to be heavily politicized violence. Uh rationalized. There's always going to be a good rationalization for it.

1:20:17 · Unknown · Aether, smoke, closure, and the veiling of spiritual perception

Um you're going to see a lot of the verbal violence that and sarcasm that we see in the community. That needs to stop. I mean, clearly they don't believe that their words have any power, and probably on an individual level they don't, but that's just more air pollution to that stagnant air is going back to. That's inviting in energies of destruction. So, you have to look at that kind of low-level terrorism is probably going to go on for another 2 years. It's probably going to be strong for 2

1:20:50 · Unknown · Aether, smoke, closure, and the veiling of spiritual perception

years. The good news is, like the '70s, it was mostly funded by the Soviets. Uh that money's gone. I think the funding for it's gone now, too. And a lot of the people who would have funded aren't going to put it, but it's still going to happen. Uh I think in places like Europe, we have a very strong chance of large-scale civil disruption, if not long-term violence. Okay? And this is not just from the horoscopes. These are from people who contact me and we discuss the reality of

1:21:24 · Unknown · Aether, smoke, closure, and the veiling of spiritual perception

it. Now, with that comes profound counter repression, and I talked about this 10 years ago. This is nothing new. Anyone who, you know, he's just study history, you know how this works. There's going to be attempts to clamp it down, and that's just going to make things worse. So, those organizations that are in Europe have to look back and say, "Well, how did we survive the '30s?" Well, you didn't. That's the point. You didn't survive. What happened is in the United States,

1:21:58 · Unknown · Aether, smoke, closure, and the veiling of spiritual perception

AMORC, TMO, uh uh some aspects of the Golden Dawn, and BOTA were the last men standing. And maybe a few other smaller groups that have gotten been forgotten by now. But, European esotericism probably didn't really return on any big level, probably till the '90s, for a variety of different reasons, but, you know, uh we have to accept that as a reality or parts of it at least. So, you in the United States have to look at this cuz I'm assuming most of the listeners are here in the US and Canada.

1:22:46 · Unknown · Aether, smoke, closure, and the veiling of spiritual perception

How are we as organizations prepared? How are we prepared on for sustainability, which is day-to-day activity, continuity, which is succession of leadership. Now, that's usually taken care of in your bylaws or your constitution. And if your group doesn't have one cuz you're small and you don't think you need it, get one. Even if it's just one page. Make it real. And then survivability. Most people don't have and that's often called a contingency plan or contingency backup.

1:23:22 · Unknown · Aether, smoke, closure, and the veiling of spiritual perception

Most of these organizations I talked to don't have one. And what is really shocking about is when we Not only do they not want to talk about it, but on the rare occasions they do, they have this belief that the masters will take care of it. This is protected. Well, you know, I sat in lodges in the '80s with people who went through national socialism and let me tell you, and communism, too. It wasn't protected. Polish grand master of Amwork was killed digging a hole trying to bury monographs.

1:24:04 · Unknown · Aether, smoke, closure, and the veiling of spiritual perception

The grand master managed to escape to South of France, died in the '80s. We know of several Martinists who just executed in the street. And a lot of people who went and a lot of Masons and others who just ended up in concentration camps. And in the East and in the in the in the Eastern countries, we saw the Bolshevik revolution destroyed everything. And kept it that way for 70 years. So, this idea that the the invisible is going to do for us what we're not willing to do for ourselves is

1:24:40 · Unknown · Aether, smoke, closure, and the veiling of spiritual perception

not only naive, but it's destructive and it's foolish. So, you and we look at just natural disasters that can occur. I think the recent fires in Southern California are good example. The Getty came very close to having a problems where tremendous amount of things are stored including probably the most valuable parts of the PRS collection were sold off to the Getty in the '90s when PRS was having trouble after the death of Manly P. Hall. Now, fortunately, it never got there, but if you look at

1:25:15 · Unknown · Maturity, realism, and the long arc of esoteric development

the video, I mean, it was it was close. We know the Theosophical Society out there burned to the ground. Okay? Um PRS, I don't know how close it got, but they were closed. I think they were getting smoke. They were closed for a while. And of course, the Self-Realization Fellowship, fortunately, it was property it was the grounds were damaged, but not physical property. Now, that's just one example, just one event. You know, so you need to have plans for what to do in a natural disaster.

1:25:58 · Unknown · Maturity, realism, and the long arc of esoteric development

Where are you going to take your stuff? Where is it going to go? Who's responsible? And in the event of civil disruption, you need to have a real big backup plan of how you're going to do continuity. Because that's when you're going to be needed most. When when when good juices you can add to the to the environment are going to be most important. Now, of course, we'd like to prevent that. You know, that's why we wrote a our second monograph was Wisdom's Bliss. We wrote that over 20 years ago and have

1:26:29 · Unknown · Maturity, realism, and the long arc of esoteric development

given away thousands of copies since then. To encourage and create that kind of sense of well-being. But these things happen and I think we're dealing with generation or two now who are so used to things being a certain way that when they talk about change and all this stuff, they don't really understand what that means. And I see that a lot with folks who who never really seen uh extreme violence except maybe on television. They've never really seen They don't really understand what goes on.

1:27:09 · Unknown · Maturity, realism, and the long arc of esoteric development

And and I see that particularly the SO esoteric groups or leaders have to show that they're leading by thinking ahead because if they don't, Saturn's just going to wipe you out. You're not going to be here in 15 years. It's You're not going to be here in 10. And and I've talked to people who said, "Look, we really suffered under COVID." I mean, you guys saw I don't know, but a lot of these groups I know, they said, "Our membership um our membership, you know, was cut in

1:27:37 · Unknown · Maturity, realism, and the long arc of esoteric development

half by COVID." >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's all really important. Uh Now, you you guys part of the work that you're doing is um has to do well Let's let's let him take care of whatever he's taking care of. Being summoned. >> You being uh it is is there um uh uh an issue with the winds or >> [laughter] >> I um I wanted to I wanted to give you the opportunity to talk about some of the stuff that IHS is doing. You know, the IHS collection um for this podcast audience

1:28:48 · Unknown · Maturity, realism, and the long arc of esoteric development

as well as uh the conference that you've got coming up in June. >> Oh, wonderful. Yeah, now the IHS collection is what we're doing is we are uh placing what we have as our most valuable and useful materials on esotericism, alchemy, Kabbalah uh different organizational teachings and publications uh as part of the permanent collection at the University of Scranton. And uh that is a premier academic research institution in Northeastern Pennsylvania. And one of the reasons we did that is

1:29:25 · Unknown · Maturity, realism, and the long arc of esoteric development

because in terms of continuity and uh sustainability and continuity and survivability we needed to partner and partnering with someone who was capable. So, we talked to different organizations in the area. Some of them had interest but not capacity. Others had capacity but not interest. And that's what you have to find. You got to find people who have both. Because if they're not going to be around in 20 or 30 years you know, what good is it to you? You you just you know, you've changed one

1:29:56 · Unknown · Maturity, realism, and the long arc of esoteric development

problem for the other. But we were able to uh have a nice discussion with the folks there and uh convinced the uh Jesuit-run institution that this would be a very good uh idea for them and for us. And so far it's been working out fine. And if you would like to make a financial contribution, which is what it takes. It takes time, talent, and treasure to make this stuff happen. That's the other thing. It It takes money. This idea that free and cheap, those days are gone. And the sooner our people grow up and

1:30:31 · Unknown · Closing reflections and future conversation

realize that, the better off it's going to be. And because you can't be this selfish. Service requires effort and sacrifice, and that's the only way you grow in this field. And this is a big sacrifice for us. But it's also a great opportunity to plant these seeds. It would take a catastrophe of a national scale for that institution to not be here in 30 or 40 years. How many of the organizations that we deal with can say that? That they have a partnered with someone whose existence

1:31:09 · Unknown · Closing reflections and future conversation

is guaranteed. Not many. So you've got to find a way to work with people who you might not think normally would be on your radar as being cooperative. But that's the way we did it with them. You know, so we're going to have several thousand volumes, and they know how to take care of our books, too. So that's the other thing, ability, capacity. So we have people who are going to make sure that this is there uh even if we are not. And if we are, it's a win. So it's a plus all round.

1:31:48 · Unknown · Closing reflections and future conversation

The institute's annual conference is a great one. We're going to do the Kali Yuga in Western esotericism. So we have discussions on millennialism or uh within the framework of colonial Pennsylvania and Ephrata and Kelpius and Beissel. You know, Fairmount Park, the early Rosicrucianism. We're going to have discussions on what is Kali Yuga within the Indian framework and the tantric framework. Uh we're going to have a discussion too on weather magic, which I think is relevant to our discussions in terms of

1:32:28 · Unknown · Closing reflections and future conversation

earth energies and global or we'll say climate change or whether it's geoengineering, whether it's man-made or whether it's natural within the framework of how is the earth moving in the solar system moving within the greater cosmos. That's another aspect of the theory. And we're going to have discussions on traditionalism. And what does that mean in terms of the role of the individual within the framework of community or as we talked about doing your duty. What is your duty?

1:32:59 · Unknown · Closing reflections and future conversation

How do you fulfill that and therefore bring health, wellness, happiness, and prosperity to yourself, your family, your community, and your gods. So, we've got all this. It's going to be a great weekend. It is longer than our previous conferences. Normally, we just have a day, a full day, a very full day, and maybe a little bit Sunday morning, but this one's going to be a little more. And uh people can attend. It's very inexpensive. It's $65. I said to Iger earlier, I said that's

1:33:31 · Unknown · Closing reflections and future conversation

what we were charging back in 1998. So, uh you know, that's that's saying a lot. And uh you can also participate by attending virtually. It will be live streamed, but we're also going to have the recording available because I don't know about you, but I can watch half of a day-long event for about 2 or 3 hours, but then uh I like to see the watch the rest of it later because, you know, people we are not able to edit out people walking around and talking in between. >> [laughter]

1:34:02 · Unknown · Closing reflections and future conversation

>> So So, sometimes I prefer to watch the edited version. It's much cleaner and easier. But, we're going to have some great stuff going on. >> Awesome. Sky, you got anything else? >> Uh just want to say you're a legend, Mark, and uh I could talk with you endlessly. Uh I appreciate you, so thank you for >> Yeah, man, fountain of insight. Right? There's fountain of insight. So, thank you for sitting and chatting with us, and uh I hope to have another conversation with

1:34:33 · Unknown · Closing reflections and future conversation

you again. >> Well, thank you very much, guys. It was great being here, and uh as you know, I'm always at your disposal. >> All righty, then. Till next time. >> [music]